I start by working with three profile sketches of my characters head on seperate layers. Front right side and left side at frame 0.
HOW DO I,
Hide the right and left side profile layers and trace the front profile shape of my head in Moho making sure the points are minimal but well placed enough to define the profile.
Then i just wanna create and drag out your horizontal bones down one side and then the other so that each bone tip meets it's respective point along the front profile precisely and wanna bind these bones to their points, etc.
Scale Bone Modelling
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
Just hide them clickin on the visibility button for edition mode... (the pair of eyes on the left of each layer)How do I ... Hide the right and left side profile layers ...
There is not magic solution for that. It depends on how complex is your profile. Watch DarthFurby's videos for action head turn and learn how he takes care of the points and its position between different profiles... Beware with point curvature. Profile would not have same curvature than front view for some points...... and trace the front profile shape of my head in Moho making sure the points are minimal but well placed enough to define the profile
Increasing the number of points would allow make profiles easier but there are more bones and more work to do. Also the problem is that could not be linearity for left and right profiles. For instance a point that is an edge in the front view of the head should be converted to a differnt point for right and side views so the scale cannot be symmetrical... Maybe you should make the layer symmetrical ...
If you post your first trial we could discuss more about it.
good luck
-G
Hi genete,
I have just started the anime.
and this is the first step.
Just to let you know that i am using DKs 2.5D rig for this.
this is the anime fle for that rig
http://www.wienertoonz.com/Herobase.anme
hope this helps,
thanks again
I have just started the anime.
and this is the first step.
Just to let you know that i am using DKs 2.5D rig for this.
this is the anime fle for that rig
http://www.wienertoonz.com/Herobase.anme
hope this helps,
thanks again
OK GENETE, ANYONE,
This is what i am trying to do. (Steps from the 2.5 D scale roate thread)
LINK - http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JGYW86VC
I start by working with three profile sketches on seperate layers. Front right side and left side. Start work on frame 0.
1. Hide the right and left side profile layers and trace the front profile shape of your head in Moho making sure the points are minimal but well placed enough to define the profile. (NOT SURE ABOUT THIS: PLEASE CHECK .ANIME FILE)
2. Create and drag out your horizontal bones down one side and then the other so that each bone tip meets it's respective point along the front profile precisely. Bind these bones to their points. (DONE)
3. Drag timeline out to say frame 20. Hide the front profile and reveal the right side profile layer.
4. Click on the scale bone tool and drag each bone out so that the bone pulls each point out to match this profile and create keyframes for all the bones on the right side of the face at frame 20. (I AM STUCK HERE - I CANT SEE ANY POINTS ON THE RIGHT PROFILE COS I HAVE SELECTED THE BONE LAYER TO DRAG BONES AND ARE ONLY SHOWN POINTS IF I SELECT THE RIGHT PROFILE VECTOR LAYER. I KNOW I HAVE MESSED IT UP IN STEP 1 OR EARLIER. PLEASE HELP: )
EDIT:Take note of the Scale bone numeric readout. This number should be the same for the opposite left profile bone. (use copy paste).
5. Hide the right side profile layer and open the left profile layer. Drag timeline out to frame 40. Repeat step 4 for the left side profile creating a set of keyframes at frame 40.
6. Save this as a master file and use another copy for testing the large control bone to get twists and implementing other constraint features like angle constraint for frontal up and down movement etc.
I read the tutorials on actions, etc, but that stuff is really enlightening. Thank u and darth.
PLEASE HELP ME WITH THIS or i will go mental. AAAArrrrrrrHHH!!!!!!!!!![/quote]
This is what i am trying to do. (Steps from the 2.5 D scale roate thread)
LINK - http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JGYW86VC
I start by working with three profile sketches on seperate layers. Front right side and left side. Start work on frame 0.
1. Hide the right and left side profile layers and trace the front profile shape of your head in Moho making sure the points are minimal but well placed enough to define the profile. (NOT SURE ABOUT THIS: PLEASE CHECK .ANIME FILE)
2. Create and drag out your horizontal bones down one side and then the other so that each bone tip meets it's respective point along the front profile precisely. Bind these bones to their points. (DONE)
3. Drag timeline out to say frame 20. Hide the front profile and reveal the right side profile layer.
4. Click on the scale bone tool and drag each bone out so that the bone pulls each point out to match this profile and create keyframes for all the bones on the right side of the face at frame 20. (I AM STUCK HERE - I CANT SEE ANY POINTS ON THE RIGHT PROFILE COS I HAVE SELECTED THE BONE LAYER TO DRAG BONES AND ARE ONLY SHOWN POINTS IF I SELECT THE RIGHT PROFILE VECTOR LAYER. I KNOW I HAVE MESSED IT UP IN STEP 1 OR EARLIER. PLEASE HELP: )
EDIT:Take note of the Scale bone numeric readout. This number should be the same for the opposite left profile bone. (use copy paste).
5. Hide the right side profile layer and open the left profile layer. Drag timeline out to frame 40. Repeat step 4 for the left side profile creating a set of keyframes at frame 40.
6. Save this as a master file and use another copy for testing the large control bone to get twists and implementing other constraint features like angle constraint for frontal up and down movement etc.
BTW. Genete, i checked out darth's videos. Holy cow, i have been watching them for 4 and half hours. GOd. my eyes r sore. I have been multitasking. YEs.There is not magic solution for that. It depends on how complex is your profile. Watch DarthFurby's videos for action head turn and learn how he takes care of the points and its position between different profiles... Beware with point curvature. Profile would not have same curvature than front view for some points...
I read the tutorials on actions, etc, but that stuff is really enlightening. Thank u and darth.
PLEASE HELP ME WITH THIS or i will go mental. AAAArrrrrrrHHH!!!!!!!!!![/quote]
The problem with this technique is not the amount of points or the position they have. The main problem is the fact that the bones have a linear displacement and by this you cannot achieve a good profile. In fact you can go from front to 3/4 only. Maybe I'm wrong and DK or someone have other idea but that's what sincerely think on that rig. The use of DarthFurby's actions technique is much better and for the same amount of time tuning the front and side profiles the result is much better.
Good luck.
-G
Good luck.
-G
I've downloaded the file and I can see the side views perfectly and you don't need to see the points in the side view, only the profile.
I insist that I believe it is not possible to morph from front to side just translating points horizontally in a general face image. If not try to do it just dragging points from front to side view holding the SHIFT key (to constraint to only horizontal translations).
You can see a trial I did with Elsa the Giraffe and it was made of several shapes for different head parts and was too difficult to achieve. Also if you place a bone for each point the deformation would not be valid for intermediate points due to the non linearity of the translation. I insist in make it only for 3/4 to front view. If you do from front to side view directly then the 3/4 view becomes ugly.
Look to the sample I did only with point motion and see that the points don't move at same velocity so it would be very difficult to achieve only with constraints. Also some points were moved up and down.
In the thread you can find the 3D model and see how the points are horizontally moved but with a 3D projection that is not the case.
http://www.darthfurby.com/genete/Other/ ... rafa5.anme
http://www.darthfurby.com/genete/Other/ ... rafa6.anme
Those files were not posted at that thread. Only the videos.
Before rig with bones do it with points and see if it is possible to achieve or not. If yes then add bones.
-G
I insist that I believe it is not possible to morph from front to side just translating points horizontally in a general face image. If not try to do it just dragging points from front to side view holding the SHIFT key (to constraint to only horizontal translations).
You can see a trial I did with Elsa the Giraffe and it was made of several shapes for different head parts and was too difficult to achieve. Also if you place a bone for each point the deformation would not be valid for intermediate points due to the non linearity of the translation. I insist in make it only for 3/4 to front view. If you do from front to side view directly then the 3/4 view becomes ugly.
Look to the sample I did only with point motion and see that the points don't move at same velocity so it would be very difficult to achieve only with constraints. Also some points were moved up and down.
In the thread you can find the 3D model and see how the points are horizontally moved but with a 3D projection that is not the case.
http://www.darthfurby.com/genete/Other/ ... rafa5.anme
http://www.darthfurby.com/genete/Other/ ... rafa6.anme
Those files were not posted at that thread. Only the videos.
Before rig with bones do it with points and see if it is possible to achieve or not. If yes then add bones.
-G
Ok,
i am specifically after 2D (not 3D). I know u have realised that but just to clarify.
I am only trying to do 3/4 view here. the side profiles are just drawn there, not for this particular purpose (i.e. scale rotate), but other things.
This is directly quoted from the scale rotate thread.
i am specifically after 2D (not 3D). I know u have realised that but just to clarify.
I am only trying to do 3/4 view here. the side profiles are just drawn there, not for this particular purpose (i.e. scale rotate), but other things.
This is directly quoted from the scale rotate thread.
"After a LOT of thought and countless experiments I have done a complete re-think and developed a brand new approach to the 2.5 human head rotation technique. While the scale rotate method I developed in this thread is very handy for 3/4 rotations, I believe it cannot be used to achieve a complete 180 degree rotation of the head without serious vector distortions.
The good news is the new method is even simpler than the first and allows you to easily create perfect character profiles!
I also have a near complete head that uses scale bone modelling.
It can perform a complete 180 degree turn. I have not had time to finish it but the technique enables you to create virtually any character you like.
D.K"
"Scale Bone Modelling
Scale Bone Modelling = Assign a bone for each profile point on the head. Go to your profile shape on the timeline and set the scale for each bone to match.
TIP: I always use a sketch of each profile as a guide for points on each head position.
There are a few more bones but these added bones are only for precisely modelling the profile. This will let you create almost any type of character head shape you can think of.
Once your character is modelled precisely, I normally only ever copy paste keyframes for all my key poses. I suppose you could use actions for this.
and....Here is the anme file
http://www.wienertoonz.com/Herobase.anme
EDIT:
Oh, There's probably no reason to add that large centre verticle bone. I just did it for central reference.
D.K
Hey DK!
That's fantastic! It opens a NEW world!
I was planning to perform this with point motion just recorded into actions! But this gives a lot of control!
I have to play with this. It seems to be very easy to use!.
-G"
AFAIK actions can record everything. I've readed some bug regarding to not record camera displacements or something similar.ARTIST wrote:btw genete,
i know its a stupid question and irrelevant to the topic being discussed, but can we use actions "successfully" with scale rotate, etc.
I think we can use actions with anything. just to confirm.
Don't missundertand me. I only say that from front to side view would be very difficult to achieve with a single linear translation. If you're gooing from front to 3/4 the go for it!. I wish you the best. Please keep us informed about your progresses. I think you're the first (after DK firts trial) who try to acomplish some serious work on this thecnique. BTW, I know it was 2D but with a little of 3D (2,5D) as fas as you'r trying to achieve a head turn... isn't it?
-G
Yes, 2.5D.Genete wrote:AFAIK actions can record everything. I've readed some bug regarding to not record camera displacements or something similar.ARTIST wrote:btw genete,
i know its a stupid question and irrelevant to the topic being discussed, but can we use actions "successfully" with scale rotate, etc.
I think we can use actions with anything. just to confirm.
Don't missundertand me. I only say that from front to side view would be very difficult to achieve with a single linear translation. If you're gooing from front to 3/4 the go for it!. I wish you the best. Please keep us informed about your progresses. I think you're the first (after DK firts trial) who try to acomplish some serious work on this thecnique. BTW, I know it was 2D but with a little of 3D (2,5D) as fas as you'r trying to achieve a head turn... isn't it?
-G
"The good news is the new method is even simpler than the first and allows you to easily create perfect character profiles!"I only say that from front to side view would be very difficult to achieve with a single linear translation."
I also have a near complete head that uses scale bone modelling.
It can perform a complete 180 degree turn. I have not had time to finish it but the technique enables you to create virtually any character you like."
COULD you please comment on this.
i think we could obviously do front t 3/4 and 3/4 to side. that should reduce distortions.
Remember also that the conversion of the profile form front view to straigthforward a side view is not a linear or smooth translation. So it cannot be achieved 100% realistically with only two keyframes (unless you use my springy mechanisms or some of heyvern's scripts to convert a rotation into a translation).
And finally, if you make a very accurate profile you will go to a "one point one bone" which is the thing that I (and suppose you) want to avoid.
In my honest opinion the best way is:
1) Divide the head into parts that have different behavior. Ears, eyes, mouth, nose (left and right), head back (left and right) head front (left and right)
2) Link those parts to some funny "translate - rotate" bones (springy, moved by scripts, or scale-moved)
3) Distort the divided part using any of the following techniques (or a combination of them: point motion, scripted bones motion, springy bones motion or scale-turn bones)
4) Hide properly the shapes behind its corresponding ones at the correct moment. Heyvern says that it could be automatically done by scripting. That's true for those shapes that are immediately put below when its opposite is put above. But in some situations you dont have a "ABC" "CBA" shape ordering. Sometimes you have "ABCDE" "CBADE" and "ABEDC" ordering that I don't know (by now) how a general script can do that.
I think the best results comes from a combination of springy for the rotation and scaled bones and point motion for the distortion.
Genete
Genete, as u can see i am leaning towards the scale rotate. I dont know why. i think it seems easier, simple.
I think u have advised me to use darths method and i can see why.
i am confused. i cant pick. i am studying both again and again. and trying to find ut what will suit my needs.
basically i am only after characters and expressions instead of backgrund etc. my script is very talkative, expressive, and all character related and not places, spaces etc.
the 2.5D scale rotate anime files show "flow/morph" that is so legitimate.
I am utterly confused. Sorry!
That's a quotation of DK's comments... ask him. I really don't know how to perform a complete frofile using only this technique."The good news is the new method is even simpler than the first and allows you to easily create perfect character profiles!
I also have a near complete head that uses scale bone modelling.
It can perform a complete 180 degree turn. I have not had time to finish it but the technique enables you to create virtually any character you like."
COULD you please comment on this.
-G
Genete wrote:That's a quotation of DK's comments... ask him. I really don't know how to perform a complete frofile using only this technique."The good news is the new method is even simpler than the first and allows you to easily create perfect character profiles!
I also have a near complete head that uses scale bone modelling.
It can perform a complete 180 degree turn. I have not had time to finish it but the technique enables you to create virtually any character you like."
COULD you please comment on this.
-G
I know thats what DK mentioned. But this was ur reply, so i thought u knew about this.
"Hey DK!
That's fantastic! It opens a NEW world!
I was planning to perform this with point motion just recorded into actions! But this gives a lot of control!
I have to play with this. It seems to be very easy to use!.
-G" "
Anyway, sorry for all the trouble.
I had left DK a pm a couple of days ago regarding the part 1 of this technique posted on e-frntier tutrial page. (i had just started then). I think DK is busy as i didnt get a reply to my recent pm tohim yet.
Hope DK reads this or comments on this in his original thread.
Regards,
P.S. - Maybe i misunderstood everything.