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Freehand Tool and Frame By Frame Layer

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:30 pm
by Slyanim
Hi! ( sorry for grammar mistakes)

I discovered a Freehand tool bug a year ago in moho 12, but it still in the 12.3 version. It's not a huge, but really frustrating one. I want to do some frame by frame animation in a professional project, so I would be grateful, if it will be fixed soon.
When I draw on frame 0, than the Freehand tool work fine! It's problematic at the other frames on FBF layer. If I draw a stroke then the last vector point don't have Bezier handle so the stroke looks bad, it doesn't follow the last segment of the preview stroke (between the last two vector points).
If you want to make some quality FBF animation in moho on a Wacom tablet, that would be a problem for you. Or It is just me? I try it on other computer in studio, but same results. I tried to find that bug in bug discussions, but I'd no luck.
Please help! Thank you in advance!

Re: Freehand Tool and Frame By Frame Layer

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:16 pm
by Greenlaw
I've had similar problems with Freehand's lines and end points. I think Moho's FBF layer is a good idea and I really would like to use FBF more often in Moho, but the current Freehand tool can make it a frustrating experience. :(

Also, Freehand's behavior is inconsistent between different resolution Cintiq devices. For example, I get very different quality results between the Cintiq 22HD I use at work and my personal Cintiq Companion when I use the same pen settings. I imagine it's probably different between models of Intuos too...will have to check that when I have time.

Freehand and Blob Brush really need to be revisited by the developers. On a hopeful note, I know they're aware of the issues so maybe we'll see improvements before too long.

That said, Chucky has gotten nice results from these tools. Maybe he'll pop in to share more of his tips? (Hint, hint!) :)

Re: Freehand Tool and Frame By Frame Layer

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:31 am
by chucky
Maybe he'll pop in to share more of his tips? (Hint, hint!)
Tips? Very droll.
For fast fluid freehand...Use these settings when possible.
These settings should actually be default for freehand, the current settings seem more for mouse drawing.

Merge strokes..ON
First switch auto weld OFF, you can weld crossings later ( globally if you want)
Keeping weld ends only ON is ok mostly ( helps defining fill shapes and keeping shapes smooth with low points), but whatever you like really.
Pressure setting whatever you like... go high (90%)
Taper ends OFF This should be off.
Smoothing keep low (25%)
Point Reduction can be higher, say..... 40%
Oh I think gpu acceleration needs to be ON to avoid slowdowns in performance

Choose a brush or *tip* I think.
There are plenty.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=31402&p=178792&hil ... nd#p178792

There are 'tips' about freehand here.

Also Synthsin75 has made a freehand tool mod with pressure to opacity which is super cool and should be a default option, have a look in scripting for that.

Re: Freehand Tool and Frame By Frame Layer

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:57 pm
by Greenlaw
Thanks, Chucky! I'm bookmarking this page. :)

Re: Freehand Tool and Frame By Frame Layer

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:58 pm
by Greenlaw
Hi Chucky,

I played around with your settings a little this morning and compared. The new settings seem to work well on the Cintiq at work. Will try them on my own computer later.

Question about GPU Acceleration: Do you find this improves accuracy at all, or just speed?

I think I'm seeing point count and distribution differences--maybe more points when GPU Acceleration is disabled? The overall shapes look more or less the same so, maybe it doesn't matter. I probably need to test this longer to see if there really is a difference.

Side note: I often have trouble closing shapes properly with the Freehand tool--I sometimes get these really weird welds with loops or bad bezier handle errors that often need to be deleted and manually re-plotted and re-welded. This is really disruptive when trying to draw, so I enabled Auto Close and that seems to work well enough.

(Well, except for a double-point at the beginning of the shape. I don't think that's an error though--it seems to be used to 'smooth' the join. Seems like the tool should be able to properly joint at a single point though so maybe I'll ask about that.)

The one thing I dislike about Auto Close is having to reach across the screen to enable the feature and then having to disable it again to continue drawing normal strokes. I'll probably get used to that but I wonder if the developers can add a modifier key to toggle this behavior. I'd submit that as a suggestion but wanted to hear your opinion first.

Anyway, I'm going to continue drawing with your settings and see how it goes. Maybe I'll start using this feature more. :)

Re: Freehand Tool and Frame By Frame Layer

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:09 pm
by Slyanim
Thank You Greenlaw and Chucky for the reply!

I tried your tips but the problem is still exist. I've made a screen capture video about the bug. If it's necessary, I uploaded it to youtube. My question is: Is it a well known error,bug? or Is it just problem to me? Because I can send an official bug report on next week.
I really believe that without this bug, Moho is perfectly fine for frame by frame animation as well. So it would be the ultimate all-in-one 2d animation software. Chucky's tutorial is the best example to it. I make shortcuts and workflow to make fast FBF animations in Moho, but the line problem is sadly a huge frustration to me ( and I think everyone who want to make frame by frame with freehand).

Btw. I know that script! I create that post as well ( pen pressure opacity), so I tested it, and I think it is really good!! I really hope It will be developed further!

I really love this piece of software and want it to be successful! In the studio, we have to use Animate CC, to make frame by frame animation, because that software has better FBF pencil brush tools. But I think Moho much better and practical all of the industry standards ( tvpaint, animate cc, toon boom)

I used the blob brush as well, but it has problems too. If I use it with merge strokes, it completely destroyed the lines after a few strokes. If I use without merge strokes, than I couldn't use the erase tool properly, and I think the tons of vector shapes not good to the computer. Can I draw without merge strokes and after I finish the drawing, or want to erase, just merge all strokes in one click or something?

From my Country Hungary:
For cut-out style, there is a great example : ... hXQuxpQ8tj
for more cartoony, smart boney style : ( of course just the 2d stuff)
And I want to create some Frame By Frame style examples!:D

Can Victor, or somebody from the development group help, or answer?

Thank you in advance!

Re: Freehand Tool and Frame By Frame Layer

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:54 pm
by Greenlaw
Those are fantastic reels! Thanks for sharing that.

I agree, for 'puppet style', Moho is the best. I almost hate to call it 'puppet style' because some of the Moho animation we've been doing at my workplace recently is approaching FBF looks.

For actual FBF, I've been using other programs to animate and then importing the footage to Moho as an Image Layer or Switch Layer. At work, we have Animate and Harmony for FBF, and I've also experimented with Photoshop's animation tools. At home, I've started using TVPaint for FBF footage.

I still occasionally use Moho's FBF for simple FX animation (fire, splashes, sweat, etc.) I would like to do more FBF directly inside Moho if the Freehand and Blob Brush wasn't awkward to draw with.

Be sure to send in those reports. Hopefully, the developers can make improvements for this soon.

Re: Freehand Tool and Frame By Frame Layer

Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:58 am
by chucky
I love Freakish kid's stuff. Was that 'Vampire Chicken?' :D
Excellent ,so was Micky. Really Cool.

Re: Freehand Tool and Frame By Frame Layer

Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:06 pm
by synthsin75
Yeah, I remember seeing Cluckie when you where GreyKid...and Moho was originally Moho. Great stuff.

Re: Freehand Tool and Frame By Frame Layer

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:05 am
by Slyanim
There is the video about the bug. When I draw a line on a FBF layer, the program create a curve keyframe at the actual frame. The last curve handles are freaks out at that frame, but on frame 0 the line is okay! Maybe can I mute curve channel on timeline on the FBF layer? That would be okay for temporary ( while the bug exist).Or I can do that on each vector layer?
Can someone reproduce this bug?

Oh, and Can someone help me in writing the problem in English? ( Because of my English skills are really bad). I will send a bug report after that.
Thank You!

Re: Freehand Tool and Frame By Frame Layer

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:35 am
by chucky
Do report that Slyanim, the translation here was fine as the video explains everything.

Re: Freehand Tool and Frame By Frame Layer

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:44 pm
by Slyanim
Hi again!

I opened a task on the official support site at the end of the last year. I wrote what is the problem and I linked this forum post, also. After that I got a question ' are you blocking drawing tools on all but frame zero?' - I answered, the problem existed anyway (on/off the drawing tools on all but frame zero). Than, I did not get answer anymore. :(
So, I ask you to try to recreate the bug if you can. I'm interested in this problem is a personal one or not. I want to use the freehand tool and frame by frame feature without the bug.

Thanks for your help in advance!

Re: Freehand Tool and Frame By Frame Layer

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:29 am
by Slyanim

I know that, I didn't post ages ago. I have tried moho 13 demo, and the path, what the developement team choosed, it's good. I tried the bitmap brushes. The concept is Cool! Sadly the rendering of the lines are not anti aliasing or something, but for rough animation, and texturing is more than enough. My main issue is, this bug exists yet. It's more than annoying.:(. Please, help!

The issue is in nutshell: When you are doing frame by frame animation in vector mode, Moho puts vector point animation key to the timeline where you create frame by frame key. What the vector point animation key does is: removes some vector point's bezier handles, and ruins your clean up lines a little bit. The lines are good at frame 0, but it's ruined on the actual frame . When you're retiming your frame by frame animation, you can see the weird vector point animation. There is a solution: you can delete those vector point animation keys, and than evertything is fine. It's a bit pain in the neck. :)

BTW! I watched Chucky's demonstration video about bitmap tools. Congrats for that!

Re: Freehand Tool and Frame By Frame Layer

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:53 pm
by chucky
HI Sly, thanks for the post.
This is all very important stuff, the issue of aliasing and the issue of FBF .
Believe me as a committed tester and bug reporter I can attest that testers and dev are beside you in this battle to kill any gremlin that sticks it's head above ground.
Certainly just the existence of bitmap freehand brings the FBF feature closer to the fore.
Building that engine from the ground up was no mean feat but having done that heavy lifting, that task is actually out of the way, a feature that has been requested for the longest time is at last a part of Moho.
Now with that out of the way there is wide open space to really look at FBF more thoroughly, something I've been interested in since day one , there are a few big issues that need to be reexamined, and there are many people championing its advancement.
Of course the core of Moho has to be looked after too. Vector animation and rigging.
There are plenty of way to improve the timeline and actions.
For all this stuff there are lists that would set any head spinning, so that's all getting prioritised.

I think hearing the voices of users clearly will help that, centralising all these fora into a proper hub so that dev can hear these voices actually has to be handled too.
You know this is actually Mike Clifton's forum which will have to be archived and a new place of discussion build rather than all these random facebook groups.

Dev are passionate and they can do nothing without the budget from on high.
The parent company SM is run by dispassionate execs and shareholders.

So in this case the only way to vote with your wallet is to support Moho.
It's a bit of a new dawn after a cataclysmic extinction event that Moho scraped through like some protomarsupial.
Now is the time for users to back it and freakn upgrade to ensure its healthy evolution. :mrgreen:

Re: Freehand Tool and Frame By Frame Layer

Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:42 pm
by Slyanim
Thanks for the answer Chucky!

This "unnecessary vectors animation keys" problem is not that big , if I use the bitmap tool for sketching, then I use vector tools for clean-up. But I miss the basic transform tools for bitmap tools like "free transform" or "cut" and "copy and paste". I wish Moho get some big money to be the perfect animation software. There is the potential. My fingers crossed for MOHO!

The bitmap tools are great! I tried it in the demo version, but nowadays I can't use it, because of really big lags. I don't know why is that :(.

It would be nice, if there was a official forum, where we can share some thoughts with the developers. ( If they don't follow this forum)

I follow your posts Chucky, there are some awesome animated bitmap art! WoW!