Frame by frame animations

[Barliesque]

The ability to inbetween transparency/color is certainly important---it deserves its own thread though.

Back to the subject of a free-drawing layer... I can certainly see how this would be very helpful in combination with the wonderful tools Moho has to offer. It would offer a convenient alternative to solving some of those little problems that can arrise when using any system for animation. The ability to draw right onto the picture could also open up other creative possibilities.

Maybe the idea is over simplified as I'm imagining it. Here's what I was thinking of...

1. You create a new "Rotoscoping" layer.
2. The contents of that layer are changeable at any keyframe.
3. All the usual transformations would apply to this layer, like any other.

For now, I'm not suggesting an automatic shape in-betweener (like in Flash) because of all the problems involved. Though maybe it would be possible later. Like in Moho 6.

[cribble]

The ability to inbetween transparency/color is certainly important---it deserves its own thread though.

Back to the subject of a free-drawing layer... I can certainly see how this would be very helpful in combination with the wonderful tools Moho has to offer. It would offer a convenient alternative to solving some of those little problems that can arrise when using any system for animation. The ability to draw right onto the picture could also open up other creative possibilities.

Maybe the idea is over simplified as I'm imagining it. Here's what I was thinking of...

1. You create a new "Rotoscoping" layer.
2. The contents of that layer are changeable at any keyframe.
3. All the usual transformations would apply to this layer, like any other.

For now, I'm not suggesting an automatic shape in-betweener (like in Flash) because of all the problems involved. Though maybe it would be possible later. Like in Moho 6.

I think this too. But the timeline would need to change to a suitable frame-by-frame timeline (rather like flashes or theTABs) to really boost the feature. Plus, wouldn't this be very heavy on peoples computers, having to load up like 500 different drawings everytime you filck between you standard vector layer and your "Rotoscoping" layer?

[Barliesque]

I'm suggesting that a Roto layer would be vector-based, just like other layers in Moho or Flash for that matter. Moho does a great job of applying brush effects to vectors, and as much as the lines may look like something else, they're still vectors to Moho. So, no this shouldn't produce an extravagant amount of data.

The timeline doesn't need to change at all, except that Rotoscope layers might require a channel of their own to indicate where their contents change. Visually, Moho's timeline doesn't have the frame-by-frame grid of Flash's, but what difference does that make? You can set keyframes frame-by-frame.

LM: Does this sound like a do-able approach? I think it would add some new creative possibilities, without detracting from Moho's star features.

[Lost Marble]

Here's what we can still do for version 5 - anything more complex is going to have to wait.

(This doesn't work this way in the current beta, but I think we can add it for version 5.) First, create a switch layer. Then, move along the timeline. At whatever frame you choose, add a new layer to the switch group, and draw in whatever shapes you want. Automatically, that layer will become switched on at that frame.

Basically, when you add a new layer to a switch group, that becomes the "turned on" layer at that frame. You can add a new layer at every frame, skip ahead 10 frames, or whatever you choose. It's simplistic, but it might help for some basic rotoscoping. Like I said, anything more sophisticated is going to have to be in a post-5.0 version.

[cribble]

you know what, LM, thats a good idea. I look forward to using this it'll fill my traditional needs until further releases. What does everyone else think?

(Good Night by the way)

[Barliesque]

I think that sounds fine. ...What I was going to suggest is that you might make a "Rotoscoping" layer appear as I've described, while internally it really works as you've described. Probably not a whole lot to be gained by that, really, except maybe keeping things a little simpler looking in the layers view.

Anyway, that sounds good to me.

...ahh, except for one thing. It would be good if, when creating a new switch layer, you had the option to begin with a duplicate of the currently visible switch layer. ...or of course, a blank. That way, you can evolve the drawing bit by bit.

[Lost Marble]

...ahh, except for one thing. It would be good if, when creating a new switch layer, you had the option to begin with a duplicate of the currently visible switch layer. ...or of course, a blank. That way, you can evolve the drawing bit by bit.

No problem - just click the Duplicate Layer button.

[TheTallGuy]

[quote="Lost Marble"]Basically, when you add a new layer to a switch group, that becomes the "turned on" layer at that frame. You can add a new layer at every frame, skip ahead 10 frames, or whatever you choose./quote]

This would be a useful stop-gap, certainly! One concern, though. As Moho works now -- and I may be out of date on this, so correct me if I'm wrong -- you cannot onion-skin different layers in a switch. To me, onion-skinning is the most important part of a trad animation approach. Is there a way to have onions show-through, even in a switch layer? Perhaps controlled by an option on the main switch layer, or perhaps as a general preference.

[Lost Marble]

Onion skins do show different layers, and they do show the changing status of a switch layer. There's a checkbox to show onion skins for the selected layer only, but by default you see onion skins for all layers.

[TheTallGuy]

Hmm... I just tried it and got no Onion Skin, so perhaps I'm doing something wrong. Here's what I did:

I created a switch layer and inside it, a vector layer. ("Layer 1") I drew a nice red square in it. On the timeline, I set a key at frame 1 to switch to Layer 1. (Now Layer 1 is visible in the work area.) I turned on the Onion Skin for frame 1. Then I created a new vector layer within the switch layer. ("Layer 2") No Onion Skin for Layer 1 visible.

At this point, I'd copy and paste the contents of Layer 1 into Layer 2, saving a lot of re-drawing time, but without the Onion Skin from the first layer, it's hard to figure out how far to adjust the new image.

Am I explaining this well? Is there a setting I forgot to set? (BTW, the option is set to see onion skins for all layers.)

[Lost Marble]

Ah, I see the problem. Here's what's going on: when the selected layer is a sub-layer of a switch group, the current "switch value" is ignored, and that sub-layer is displayed, regardless of which child the switch layer says should be "on" at that moment. That way, you can edit a sub-layer of a switch group without necessarily switching it on.

A side-effect of this is that you only see the onion skins for that layer too. If you select the switch layer, then you should see onions skins for all of its sub-layers.

We might be able to fix this, but it might have weird side-effects regarding switch layers. I'll look into it.

[TheTallGuy]

We might be able to fix this, but it might have weird side-effects regarding switch layers. I'll look into it.

In the Probably Unhelpful Suggestions Department...

I can envision you ending up in a tug-of-war between the behavior of Switch layers when used as real switch layers vs. Switch layers for frame-by-frame series.

What if you just created a new layer type called "Frame Series" or something like that, which was based on (subclass of?) switch layers but had slightly different UI behaviors, as we've been discussing. At the moment, it would be a glorified hack, but hell, we're out of time.

Then, in future versions, this kind of layer would evolve into something more appropriate for frame-by-frame/rotoscoping/whathaveyou, without dorking up Switch layers. For example, I'd think that, unlike normal Vector layers, each key in a FS would be new artwork. That is, you can add/remove points, and they only apply to the current frame -- they aren't folded back to frame 0 the way normal Vector layers do.

[spasmodic_cheese]

i agree with thetallguy, if it isnt too hard.

[Lost Marble]

I agree that trying to fit all this into a switch layer is not the ultimate solution. The switch layer trick is just a small addition we can add for version 5. Right now it's too late to add a whole new system for frame-by-frame animation for version 5. Even a "slightly different" type of switch layer has too many implications to just throw it in at the last minute.

[TheTallGuy]

Even a "slightly different" type of switch layer has too many implications to just throw it in at the last minute.

Yes, I figured that would be the case. The most important thing is to get Moho 5 to gold! Perhaps these things can make it into the next release.