line tool

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heyvern
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Post by heyvern »

Patmals wrote:maybe im going crazy, or i am so basic..sorry guys if thats so plain boring and so obvious..i might be reading into his request differently..
No... I think you get it. I get it. I know what he wants... I just don't know... if what he wants is possible (prove me wrong fazek!).

He wants zero effort tweening in AS... uh... wait...

Holy cow! I think it just hit me what Fazek has in mind!

You have a line drawn... on a later keyframe... instead of moving the line "manually" by dragging the whole thing... or moving the points...

You use a "special" tool and click on the line, then draw a new line... and the points of the "old" line are distributed or moved as closely as possible based on the points to the new location....

Man... this would be complex from a progamming point of view... would all the lines be connected? Do you have to click the start and stop points? etc.

hmm....

-vern
hopscotch
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Post by hopscotch »

i think you are beginning to understand and these thoughts are getting closer to the original idea.

this also may be an issue that involves interpolating as well.

for example, when using switch layers the issue with tweening is that an animator must make an additional vector layer each time they wish to tween a line or shape. which, if the animation itself is lengthy, the number of layers required would be extremely large.

so, if an animator could draw a line or shape on frame 01, then as they moved forward in the timeline that line or shape is only visible on frame 01, yet there is a prompt line that appears in the consecutive frames that shows the direction and shape of the line you just drew. the animator could then draw a new line for example on frame 05 and then a new prompt line would appear after frame 05 for the next keyframe and so on. once the frame cycle was completed you could return to frame 01, begin a new line on the same layer and complete an additional frame cycle. so on and so forth until the animation is completed.

>Fazek wrote
It would be easy to write a script for this. The main problem is to decide which point belongs to which, specially if the two lines has different number of points.

i'm not sure how to write the script but perhaps you could have a beginning point and an end point to the line. an A and Z. like the lines now have in AS

A-----------Z

A and Z are your constants and the points in between may vary. yet they vary exponetially between each keyframe.
hopscotch
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Post by hopscotch »

vern you are getting really close now.

yet you wouldn't need a "special" tool, you would just continue to use the pencil tool to eliminate going back and forth between tools.

the other possiblity is to create and "on/off" switch. you could turn tweening on or tweening off. that would be your "special" tool. this way you can "activate" the tweening.

this is right on

>vern wrote
... and the points of the "old" line are distributed or moved as closely as possible based on the points to the new location
Patmals
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Post by Patmals »

Oh thanks Heyvern! :)

I get it too now,

So, without the need of using the switch layers? and redrawing the same points? or something like that?

I'm sure one of you scripting guys could pull something off. it would be damm nice. or Maybe something for the next version of AS?

You could draw the same stroke without have to use any move tools on each point, but it keeps the same point number and can be tweened?
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heyvern
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Post by heyvern »

I am not sure if "my idea" would be much of a time saver.

AS uses the motion of points that change over time... not the "shape" of the object.

The only way to do this would be to... manipulate the points drawn on the first frame in later frames.

I still think it would have to be a multistep process. You would have to indicate to the application which "line" or group of points on a layer you want to "change". All the "lines" (there has to be more than just one right?) would be in place on frame 00. You couldn't draw new ones using the "special" tool... where would they go on previous frames?

Here is what is in my head using a special tool:

1. Select the points of a vector shape you want changed on a frame in the timeline.

2. With the points still selected draw a stroke with the special tool where those points would go.

3. The "tool" will then reposition the points selected over the new stroke.

There are so many... issues with this idea... <sigh>

To be honest... I probably wouldn't have any need for this kind of thing. I like moving the points by hand... actually... I like using bones even more.

-vern
hopscotch
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Post by hopscotch »

don't give up vern. you are so close.

this would save an enormous amount of time. please look at the software on this site. spend some time and pay close attention to the ink tool.

http://www.elecorn.com/tweenmaker/download.html

try the following...

with the ink tool, draw one line and then skip a couple of frames and draw another line, skip a couple more frames and draw another, etc. it saves so much time by eliminating the process of moving a number of points manually every time you wish to make a keyframe. it's so quick and simple. plus the line itself is direction sensitive and is aware which point is the beginning and the end.
Patmals
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Post by Patmals »

Actually, the technology is up 'for grabs'..so... E-frontier?

http://techtransfer.byu.edu/techabstrac ... eening.htm


and there was a topic created in 'other software' about tweenmaker

http://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=246
hopscotch
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Post by hopscotch »

i've read this thread above before and seems like there are many animators that would like to see a feature like line tweening in AS.

the motion in AS is so unique that it makes other softwares seem undesirable.

what heyvern wrote would be awesome...as follows
You have a line drawn... on a later keyframe... instead of moving the line "manually" by dragging the whole thing... or moving the points...

You use a "special" tool and click on the line, then draw a new line... and the points of the "old" line are distributed or moved as closely as possible based on the points to the new location....
would all the lines be connected?


i think the lines would not be connected. they would be separate like they are now with AS when you draw and manipulate more than one line or shape on a layer over time.

Do you have to click the start and stop points? etc
as far as clicking start and start points, i'm sure you could. in order to start a point you just begin to draw. when you are done, you would end the line by hitting a command key such as the 'clear' key on the keyboard or F9, etc. if you wanted to start the line again you would click on the line with a tool to reactivate the line and begin where you left off.
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Fazek
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Post by Fazek »

I made a version for the Heyvern's idea. You can find it in the scriptwriter section, in my script_tools (Please send suggestions for my scriptwriting topic).

First, you can select the points (as usual, you can do it with the same tool), then stroke somewhere with the mouse and the program replaces the points. It guesses the correct direction and keeps the relative spacings between the points. If you just click somewhere, it deselects the points.
- - - Fazek
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heyvern
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Post by heyvern »

Very cool!

Fazek, that is EXACTLY how I imagined it. It's like you read my mind... I'm kind of creeped out by that actually. ;)

I am very happy my teeny tiny contribution to this idea was helpful in anyway.

-------------------

Possible additonal features I have been imagining...

Group transformation

Starting shape is an arm; bicep, forearm, hand. Any closed filled shape.

1. arm is "straight out" extended.
2. Select just the forearm and hand group of points.
3. Draw a line with the mouse. The starting point of "mouse stroke" is the pivot point or origin point of the transformation.
4. Forearm-hand group of selected points maintains relative position and proportions, but rotates, bends, scales to match the mouse stroke.

Possibly for... really quick squash and stretch... very quick repositioning/resizing of body parts.

If the stroke was "longer" than the original shape... it would get "stretched". If you draw a quck straight line at a new angle... the group is "rotated".

This is... uh... very much like bones... but... seems lots of people don't like bones... just an idea.

Fazek, just look inside my head... concentrate... ignore the astronaut making spaghetti next to the two headed belly dancer... focus...

;)

-vern
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ulrik
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Post by ulrik »

Fazek, this sooo coool!, I have tested your line tool just a few strokes and it's really impressive, a whole new world is opening up, a new way to work, I'm really impressed.
Now I just have to play around with it some more to see what can be accomplished with it, thank you a lot for sharing your knowledge with us!!
hopscotch
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Post by hopscotch »

hello fazek,

congratulations! this is very nice. i have been spending a majority of the day working with the new feature.

i'd like to spend some more time with this and provide some constructive feedback.

again, thank you for spending the effort on this feature.
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Mikdog
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Post by Mikdog »

Hmm.

I think what the script would have to do is for the user to be able to specify 'target areas'

For morphing software, you take 2 different images, specify what the nose area is, the mouth area, the eyes. etc.

That way the computer has some idea of what areas to tween with what.

The same could be possible with AS. After drawing 2 different lines, the user would specify the different areas of the line (eg top, middle, bottom) and specify these same areas on the second drawing.

This way, the guess-work that the computer has to do is somewhat eliminated.

This could be extended to a character (eyes, nose, head, body, legs, etc)
hopscotch
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Post by hopscotch »

hello fazek,

after spending some time with the new line tool here are some things i have discovered that could be improved upon.

all lines drawn after the initial line are insensitive to subtle curves. which means when you draw an arc or a subtle curve in the line, the script ignores those subtle curves and renders them straight. in turn the animator must go back and adjust the points to reach the desired curve or arc which is what we are attempting to avoid. if the script would allow for subtle curves it would save a lot of time.

second is pressure sensitivity. currently the line pressure is held constant through each tweened line. if you wish to make the line thicker or thinner over time the animator again has to go back and adjust points, in turn allowing for more time. if the script would allow the animator to make thicker or thinner lines over time by using pen pressure on each keyframe it would again save a lot of time.
My major goal in almost every tool is to minimize mouse clicks and tool changes.
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Fazek
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Post by Fazek »

Yes, the pen pressure is a good idea. About the following of curves. It is not easy at all. Maybe you know about my experiments with the points and curvature. These curves are good for animation, but it's hard to follow a path precisely.

The freehand tool can add any number of new points anywhere to follow the stroke, and it "straightens" the lines as well. But in this tool, I must keep the original number of points, and because of the animation, I must keep the "configuration" of points as well. The actual version keeps the original relative distances between the points. Maybe there could be another, refined way, and maybe there are bugs in the tool (I found and corrected some already, please download the latest version). I think if you are using higher number of points, it could help. Perhaps I will add some point replacing function into this tool.

ADDED: I made the line width handling and the individual point replacing, so download and try it.
- - - Fazek
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