Anime Studio Quality

[synthsin75]

Knunk,

I'm mainly speaking from a traditional animation point of view, as opposed to live-action. It is only with computers software that this line can be blurred. Traditionally, it was just hugely impractical to try to do these sort of changes, so planning was stressed. Having things like Flash symbols, that make these changes practical, the ability to plan well gets less exercise.

And that's what I mean. Any director (including GK, though I seriously doubt it) that cannot make a decision and stick to it because he was the one who made it, has sacrificed his ability to plan well for the convenience of certain software.

If a good director is prone to changing his mind and not having a very clear vision of the project he is directing, then I have ABSOLUTELY no idea on earth what a good director is.

Tweaks are going to happen, that implies it is the exception rather than the rule.

[heyvern]

I agree 100% that ASP needs some better production tools. I have not produced a big series so I wouldn't know how hard it would be to do this with ASP. I just figured it could be done from my little experience.

Improvements of this nature are agreed. Production and time line need work. We ALL agree on this... however... how do we get to that point? What if Mike does this? What if half of us like it the other half doesn't? What if it is missing features?

My wish for all of these feature requests is NOT to "hard code" them into ASP but to improve the scripting interface AND the file format so WE can build OUR OWN custom production pipelines.

To Graykid productions specifically... would you rather have whatever Mike Clifton and SM come up with for the solution? Or would you rather have the ability to pick and choose EXACTLY how you want it to work?

For example, here are some features I would like to see.

1. Custom area in the AS file format to write data from a script.
2. Save, open and import AS files from a script.
3. All key frame properties accessible through the script interface (specifically interpolation).

With just those 3 features here's what could be done:

Create a "data management" asset linking pipeline within ASP. A pop up window for each bone or group layer that indicates which layers are linked and where the file exists.

Saving a "base project" file would save changes to ALL the linked layer object files (file paths are stored in the file. the linked layers are in the file and just need to be saved out replacing the originals.)

Opening and editing a linked layer file separately would automatically be updated in the other document when it's opened. Those layers would be "updated", possibly based on a date or time stamp (lua has date and time stamps).

So my thought is this... you have two choices, hope that Mike does exactly what you need to improve ASP or... hope he THINKS LIKE A PROGRAMMER and lets OTHER people add those features.

EDIT: In my opinion adding those "smaller" script and file format features are going to be easier and quicker to do than creating a production pipeline work flow in ASP from scratch.

-vern

[Rudiger]

Is it too much to ask for both? I think it would be great if the production pipeline was completely scriptable, but I would still like Anime Studio to come with a default pipeline in place that studios or single-users could customize or redo if they wished.

That's pretty much how it works with the basic toolset at the moment, anyway. I mean it would be pretty scary if Anime Studio came with a completely blank tool palette and it was up to each user to source their own toolset. Instead it comes with a pretty complete set of tools and users still have the option of customizing them like Fazek did.

[dm]

p.s. Most of the angst is directed at DM who always seems to be very eager to jump all over the shortcomings of AS.

Yeah, it's a shame that I don't love the shortcomings, isn't it?

And yet, I'm still using it, and I'm probably one of the larger customers too (not physically, just financially).

I'm freelance. I don't have the luxury of a technical director on staff. Current project will last a few months, and the production company will shut down. It's NOT ME who's having the issue with no support package. I'm trying to get ASP on the show, remember? I have an Anime Studio 'guy'. He'll be on this job.

Incredible as it may seem, when you have a customer paying for a production (as in a commercial or industrial film), they want to have a say in the final project. They make changes all the time. I guess I'll try telling them that they approved it, "now live with it." I never thought of that approach before. How silly of me.

Toon Boom does what it does well enough. It has strong points and weak points. Same goes for ASP. I see them as similar to having a phillips screwdriver and a straight blade screwdriver. I have other animation tools as well. I guess it's foolish to use 'hobbiest' software for a professional production, isn't it? Naturally, it's easy to say what to do to fix the 'larger production' issues, having no experience with actually having done it "just write a script, it's easy". Right.

Hey, Synth. You're so upbeat, understanding, and seem to pay close attention to what people say-maybe you'd be interested in coming to LA for a couple of weeks to offer training and startup support for this production? I'm sure your 'curriculum' would be perfect, and you'd have the patience to deal with the various mindsets of our bunch of animators. You have a vested interest in the company and software, right? (For the most part, no one wants to deal with learning anything more than they absolutely need to. 'Support' often comes in the form of "Can you make the tool highlight blue instead of yellow?")

Production manager has some valid concerns. I did a demo today of what I wanted to do on the job. He's reconsidering. I forgot to tell him he was an idiot, (and all the other supportive stuff offered here.)

[heyvern]

Is it too much to ask for both? I think it would be great if the production pipeline was completely scriptable, but I would still like Anime Studio to come with a default pipeline in place that studios or single-users could customize or redo if they wished.

I agree. Having both would be great. Actually having a new time line and production pipeline built in to ASP would be FANTASTIC. The issue is not which is better right now but how quickly or how far along the development is for such an advanced new feature.

Scenario 1:

SM and MC put in a new time line and features to improve the production workflow. This takes much longer for v6 to come out because it is much more work. Much more testing required. It's "locked in" so no quick changes.

After all that... It doesn't meet the requirements of some of the users. They don't like it. It doesn't work in their production workflow and once again they have to wait for the NEXT version or not use it at all.

Scenario 2:

A few simple scripting and file format features are added. With some new script features it would make creating a NEW TIME LINE or a production system as previously described much easier to produce. I or others could create custom scripts for workflow systems within ASP.

Then if it doesn't fit the bill... it could be changed or modified by myself.. or someone else could change it. Or someone else could make an entirely different one that works exactly how it's needed within a specific project. There would be no need to wait months or years for another version of ASP to come out.

It's ironic that so many people wanted or still want AS to go "open source" and then don't like the idea of making AS "open" to others to improve it.

I still say that is where the power is in ASP. Make it open to scripting so it can be customized up the wazoo.

If Fazek had not created those new tools do you honestly believe Mike would have done this? Efrontier? Smith Micro? No. If the tools were not open and modifiable then we would be stuck with the same tools that come with AS or Moho.

If we insist on new features that are fixed and unchangeable then AS is locked in stone from version to version. It is the scripting that makes it uniquely different and more powerful than other animation tools.

-vern

[Rudiger]

Hey Vern,

Scenario 1:

SM and MC put in a new time line and features to improve the production workflow. This takes much longer for v6 to come out because it is much more work. Much more testing required. It's "locked in" so no quick changes.

After all that... It doesn't meet the requirements of some of the users. They don't like it. It doesn't work in their production workflow and once again they have to wait for the NEXT version or not use it at all.

Scenario 2:

A few simple scripting and file format features are added. With some new script features it would make creating a NEW TIME LINE or a production system as previously described much easier to produce. I or others could create custom scripts for workflow systems within ASP.

One thing I don't understand about your statements is, who says that all changes made by Mike/Smith Micro have to be "locked-in"? Mike has already implemented a significant portion of Anime Studio's functionality in Lua. I don't see why he would stop this practice while working on v6. Just because Mike has access to the source code, doesn't mean every feature he adds has to be done at that level.

So I guess I support Scenario 2, but with Mike, and hopefully his team, writing the scripts to implement the new production-oriented functionality.

It's just such a significant feature that I think it is a task best left up to the primary developer. While I have no doubt that you or someone else here could pull it off, it would still take you a significant amount of time to develop and test it, and then there's the issue of customer support. A user could start work a on a great production flow script and then disappear without a trace. Then we would have to wait for someone else to take it over and try and understand their code.

A user could still roll their own if they wanted to, but there would be an official fully tested flow that's ready to use out of the box. Ideally, Smith Micro would sub-contract you or SynthSin to write the scripts. The important differences being a) you would get paid for your time and b) that SmithMicro would be responsible for their quality and maintenance.

[heyvern]

One thing I don't understand about your statements is, who says that all changes made by Mike/Smith Micro have to be "locked-in"? Mike has already implemented a significant portion of Anime Studio's functionality in Lua.

I'm not arguing with anyone here. In a perfect world all new features should be added by the developer. This is true for 99% of the applications out there. But we all know that ALL the features we want can't be done by Mike. He has to pick and choose which ones he can work on. There is no way we will get ALL the features we want.

I am merely pointing out the obvious benefit of making sure that the few features that are added include scripting improvements so that those of us who can make use of them will have the tools needed to add all the features that Mike can't add on his own.

The last feature added was animated layer order. There is no script access for this yet so it is "locked in stone" until a new version. There are other features that have no script access. Key frame interpolation can't be read from a key frame through scripting. A major huge road block for saving animation data from layers. So does Mike go to all the effort to create a built in application version for saving animation data? Or does he simply add key interpolation as a "read" value from a key frame? He adds that in and BANG my script is done.

When I think of improvements to the script interface I can see new features no one thought of yet. Improving the script interface, making it less complicated will benefit everyone. If scripts could be added and used easily with out needing to use bizarre bone names or keeping track of where scripts are etc... the "mystery" and off putting "advanced" nature won't be an issue. Even a new user with little knowledge of a "script" could make use of them.

-vern

[aRh]

I only can say that AS is the prefect vector animation tool for making great animation!!

just watch this animation :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TolosV15 ... annel_page

[dm]

Cinema 4D, Maya, etc. have scripting, and plug-ins. (SDK). Designed for modularity and customization from the start. It makes for being able to do anything you can imagine within the software. Some if it code efficiently (quick-even multi-threaded if you like) too.

It all comes down to how AS is to be positioned in the marketplace, doesn't it? How much will it cost, who will buy it, what's it worth? Not much reason to add something if sales don't exceed development costs.

About software: the things I do in AS I can do faster and easier than in Toon Boom (or whatever).

The things I do in Toon Boom, I can do faster and easier than in AS, etc.

The things I do in TV Paint, I can do faster and easier than in other software.

Same goes for word processors and every other piece of software that I use. If all of your needs are satisfied by AS, that's great. Not everyone has the same needs, do they?

I thought this was a forum: meeting place for discussing things of public interest

Sometimes seems more like a forum: court or tribunal

Maybe I was mistaken.

[blacksunproject]

Hi Guys,

Thought i'd pipe up...

Actually, i'm not sure whether we'd use AS for major series work. A small team of people can handle it but it may be a logistical nightmare to run a massive production on it. It was when we did La Reine Soleil.

I really want to help this software grow and become a big player, what I'd really like to do is work with Smith Micro and develop the software for production use.

I don't mean change the way the software works, its great as is but there are a few problems with the infrastructure. Mainly Data Base and filing. I can't tell you how difficult it is to keep track of everything within the software. If a data/production base was implemented it would make organisation a lot better and less of a nightmare for major series work.

We've got a massive series coming up and we need to use the software (cause we have developed a great technique for it) but quite frankly at present its scaring the s**t out of me!!

Maybe theres a way to make this work with scripting or something - i don't know i'm not a programmer.

Another way to make this great program more accessible to Flash & Toonboom users is to upgrade the interface, make them more similar - you don't know how many times I've heard 'the timeline is so confusing' and believe me when you have to train 50 odd people to use a software it can become very labor intensive and very expensive.

Don't get me wrong, i think the software is capable of so much more than flash and toonboom combined, its just the interactivity side that causes a problem for me.

I want to help develop it for major production. Thats my 2 cents!

Feel free to lynch me now...

GK

Great post. Nicely said.

[blacksunproject]

One thing I don't understand about your statements is, who says that all changes made by Mike/Smith Micro have to be "locked-in"? Mike has already implemented a significant portion of Anime Studio's functionality in Lua.

I'm not arguing with anyone here. In a perfect world all new features should be added by the developer. This is true for 99% of the applications out there. But we all know that ALL the features we want can't be done by Mike. He has to pick and choose which ones he can work on. There is no way we will get ALL the features we want.

I am merely pointing out the obvious benefit of making sure that the few features that are added include scripting improvements so that those of us who can make use of them will have the tools needed to add all the features that Mike can't add on his own.

The last feature added was animated layer order. There is no script access for this yet so it is "locked in stone" until a new version. There are other features that have no script access. Key frame interpolation can't be read from a key frame through scripting. A major huge road block for saving animation data from layers. So does Mike go to all the effort to create a built in application version for saving animation data? Or does he simply add key interpolation as a "read" value from a key frame? He adds that in and BANG my script is done.

When I think of improvements to the script interface I can see new features no one thought of yet. Improving the script interface, making it less complicated will benefit everyone. If scripts could be added and used easily with out needing to use bizarre bone names or keeping track of where scripts are etc... the "mystery" and off putting "advanced" nature won't be an issue. Even a new user with little knowledge of a "script" could make use of them.

-vern

Shouldn't we really be asking what Lost Marble is going to do?

[mkelley]

Cinema 4D, Maya, etc. have scripting, and plug-ins. (SDK). Designed for modularity and customization from the start. It makes for being able to do anything you can imagine within the software. Some if it code efficiently (quick-even multi-threaded if you like) too.

Absolutely. I think, if I'm not mistaken, this is Vern's whole point. He wants the script interface for AS to be as open as possible. A Software Development Kit (SDK) in the case of AS mostly needs to be explanations of the variables and functions, since there isn't anything special that needs to be linked or invoked because (thank the Gods) the file format is ASCII and LUA is not precompiled.

I'm just guessing, but my hunch is that GK is contacting SM for some custom software work (or perhaps at the least being on the alpha). Since nearly every major studio runs in-house software for their animation this makes sense. If Vern's vision came to pass someone like GK could hire him (or anyone familiar with LUA) and have whatever interface they'd like -- imagine how powerful that would be. I don't know how or even if ToonBoom allows plug-in developers to function, but it can't possibly be this open (even just due to the file format).

That would solve the issue of using AS for any truly large, professional studio -- it would position someone like GK on the same basis of, say, Pixar in terms of being able to dictate how their software should work. Integrating database and resource management would be a piece of cake (this is something I'm familiar with, since I'm a database expert). And then they could turn around and perhaps in conjunction with SM (or not, as the case might be) decide to sell what they create to other studios, etc.

Win/Win for everyone, right? So that just leaves those of us who aren't studios (perhaps like dm who makes a living selling his stuff but still a one-man shop) and who can't afford to hire a programmer or do it themselves. So in that case I do agree to a point with those who want a few of these features in AS (if Mike's going to provide this kind of access he might as well implement some of them). Also, is SM is smart they will take the best scripts and hard code them into AS.

This last has a lot of precedent -- 3D Max never had any hair in the system until a plugin that created hair was written by a third party. Eventually they contracted with them and a new feature was added to the program without any (or very little) in-house programming resources needed. And that happened to Max all the time and I'm sure it's true of other software. The key was the Max SDK was open enough so that third party developers could do this. Hell -- if the LUA SDK was that open for AS even *I* would write some stuff for it (and since my specially is database perhaps I'd write that asset management stuff that GK wants).

(However, I still think dm's production guy was an idiot. Sometimes you just need to tell it like it is. As I said before, his two issues about AS had no merit and that's a pretty clear sign he didn't know what he was talking about).

[heyvern]

Shouldn't we really be asking what Lost Marble is going to do?

Yes, and both Mike and Smith Micro have indicated they want our feed back on what features we would like to have.

My concern is that all the feature requests are very focused... time line, work flow, gradients, fill effects, bezier curves, import, export, etc etc. There are not many of us who create scripts. We are a very tiny minority. I want to try and point out how features for this minority is a win win for everyone who uses AS.

Some people say they "don't use scripts" because it's too... complicated or they don't know how to use them etc. Look how many new users have to be told where to find Fazek's replacement tools. Tools that are now almost the "standard".

That is a lacking of the implementation of custom tool scripts. It is kind of a pain to add in new tools. It's kind of tricky to use some of the layer scripts. If it were easier to install and use custom scripts and any "fears" were alleviated or reduced I think you could see a lot more people taking advantage of BETTER scripts written by those who ENJOY the process and have the ability to do so.

Not everyone is going to create scripts. It will always be a small minority. However if that minority was ignored because most people don't use that feature then... we wouldn't have Fazek's tools or any of the other scripts people use everyday.

No tribunal. No court. Just trying to point out that scripts are not these weird alien "advanced" gizmos they appear to be. The potential is beyond what most people seem to realize.

If you really really want new features on a regular basis then everyone would encourage Mike to focus some attention on scripting as much as anything else. I would be very very disappointed if I didn't see some extensive overhauling of the script interface in the next version.

Remember neither Mike nor Smith Micro can say anything about what they are planning to do. We just have to wait and see.

-vern

[patricia3d]

I am also learning scripting in Moho. My old programming skill is helping me here. WIth the script you can really do wonders.

[Freakish Kid]

This'll be a long one!!!

Sounds like a director trying to direct an animation project as if it were live-action. These are the bad habits produced by the use of Flash. Animation has always been about good planning. You get the director to sign off on character design. This is probably why I'll never work in such a production. I'd say,"If you signed off on it, deal with it".

Overall this is just the sign of a bad director.

A few things, even with live action you can't just run back out and change something - in fact its 10 times more expensive to do that with live action. And your comment regarding flash is not true either, Flash storyboards are the most prepped things I've ever seen - its what we use, in fact it very easy to tweak with Flash and AS - One of the main reasons why we use AS is because it is possible to direct somethings 'on the fly' its called a collaborative process - working with a great team to make something special and unique that's head and shoulders above the rest. I'm sorry but if I ever heard someone say to me 'you signed off on it, deal with it' I'd blow a stack, I'd probably reply with "I'm paying you to do a job so do it" which is not what anyone wants to hear. The team and the project you work on/with are the most important things within the studio environment - if you are working with a great team you don't mind going the extra mile - you do what you need to do until the job leaves the studio, that's how you get a great reputation and a steady flow of good, well paid work. Anyone with that kind of attitude is just a jobsworth, not really caring about the work they produce and that's a shame cause we get to produce art and animation, whats not to love about that? we could all be working in a drive thru!

Knunk,

And that's what I mean. Any director (including GK, though I seriously doubt it) that cannot make a decision and stick to it because he was the one who made it, has sacrificed his ability to plan well for the convenience of certain software. If a good director is prone to changing his mind and not having a very clear vision of the project he is directing, then I have ABSOLUTELY no idea on earth what a good director is.

Sometimes its not that clear cut, situations occur, ideas happen. What we create is a evolutionary process. If everyone is on board with the project you all work to make it great. Just because a director has a better idea, to aid the overall pace, story, flow of the film doesn't make him a bad director for not knowing it in the first place.

Call me Crazy, but I think Smith Micro would be very interested in making Anime Studio more production studio friendly. As long as it's done in a way that doesn't adversely impact the single-user flow, then I'm all for it.

@GK: I noticed that you never submitted a list of top 10 requested features. I'm sure there's a good reason for that, but I can't help mentioning it, as I know a lot of us would be interested to know what you and your animators would like to change about AnimeStudio to make it more production-friendly.

They run a business, every business needs to expand and grow. I really don't think it would effect you guys either - they wouldn't change the basics of the software, thats great as is. They'd just expand on it to make it more production friendly. Remember it only takes one successful series to put it out there - hopefully that will happen soon!

I've said what i feel needs to change, as far as the general software goes we have no problems with it, its kind of become second nature and we can produce some beautiful work with it as is. I don't know maybe its time to have a think tank!

I agree 100% that ASP needs some better production tools. I have not produced a big series so I wouldn't know how hard it would be to do this with ASP. I just figured it could be done from my little experience.

To Graykid productions specifically... would you rather have whatever Mike Clifton and SM come up with for the solution? Or would you rather have the ability to pick and choose EXACTLY how you want it to work?

Well I think the best way forward would be to work closely with them on a large scale production. That way they get hands on production experience with the software and know how to make it work - the fee for this could be included in the budget as R&D.

Cinema 4D, Maya, etc. have scripting, and plug-ins. (SDK). Designed for modularity and customization from the start. It makes for being able to do anything you can imagine within the software. Some if it code efficiently (quick-even multi-threaded if you like) too.

It all comes down to how AS is to be positioned in the marketplace, doesn't it? How much will it cost, who will buy it, what's it worth? Not much reason to add something if sales don't exceed development costs.

About software: the things I do in AS I can do faster and easier than in Toon Boom (or whatever).

The things I do in Toon Boom, I can do faster and easier than in AS, etc.

The things I do in TV Paint, I can do faster and easier than in other software.

Same goes for word processors and every other piece of software that I use. If all of your needs are satisfied by AS, that's great. Not everyone has the same needs, do they?

I thought this was a forum: meeting place for discussing things of public interest

Sometimes seems more like a forum: court or tribunal

Maybe I was mistaken.

dm, you seem like a production savvy kinda guy, you hit the nail on the head, you use what ever software you need to to get the job done in the highest quality possible - the reason I piped up was because I LOVE the software and want more people to use it, big productions as well as single users. I'd like it to be right up there with Flash - and Flash experts have told me that the software couldn't do what AS does, the skies the limit - I did not expect an onslaught just because I suggested something that would make our beloved software world renowned!!

Cinema 4D, Maya, etc. have scripting, and plug-ins. (SDK). Designed for modularity and customization from the start. It makes for being able to do anything you can imagine within the software. Some if it code efficiently (quick-even multi-threaded if you like) too.

Absolutely. I think, if I'm not mistaken, this is Vern's whole point. He wants the script interface for AS to be as open as possible. A Software Development Kit (SDK) in the case of AS mostly needs to be explanations of the variables and functions, since there isn't anything special that needs to be linked or invoked because (thank the Gods) the file format is ASCII and LUA is not precompiled.

I'm just guessing, but my hunch is that GK is contacting SM for some custom software work (or perhaps at the least being on the alpha). Since nearly every major studio runs in-house software for their animation this makes sense. If Vern's vision came to pass someone like GK could hire him (or anyone familiar with LUA) and have whatever interface they'd like -- imagine how powerful that would be. I don't know how or even if ToonBoom allows plug-in developers to function, but it can't possibly be this open (even just due to the file format).

That would solve the issue of using AS for any truly large, professional studio -- it would position someone like GK on the same basis of, say, Pixar in terms of being able to dictate how their software should work. Integrating database and resource management would be a piece of cake (this is something I'm familiar with, since I'm a database expert). And then they could turn around and perhaps in conjunction with SM (or not, as the case might be) decide to sell what they create to other studios, etc.

Win/Win for everyone, right? So that just leaves those of us who aren't studios (perhaps like dm who makes a living selling his stuff but still a one-man shop) and who can't afford to hire a programmer or do it themselves. So in that case I do agree to a point with those who want a few of these features in AS (if Mike's going to provide this kind of access he might as well implement some of them). Also, is SM is smart they will take the best scripts and hard code them into AS.

This last has a lot of precedent -- 3D Max never had any hair in the system until a plugin that created hair was written by a third party. Eventually they contracted with them and a new feature was added to the program without any (or very little) in-house programming resources needed. And that happened to Max all the time and I'm sure it's true of other software. The key was the Max SDK was open enough so that third party developers could do this. Hell -- if the LUA SDK was that open for AS even *I* would write some stuff for it (and since my specially is database perhaps I'd write that asset management stuff that GK wants).

(However, I still think dm's production guy was an idiot. Sometimes you just need to tell it like it is. As I said before, his two issues about AS had no merit and that's a pretty clear sign he didn't know what he was talking about).

Dang! You took the words out of my mouth! A man after my own thinking! I think we're in a position to put the software through its paces as far as production goes, and I'm willing to do whatever we can to bring it up to speed for a major production.

GK