Need Your help, Don't know what to choose.

yosefdbz · Post by **yosefdbz** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:52 pm

Well, first of all, as you all can see i'm newbie +Engrish speaker... sorta

-
I'll start with this, I love animation,
and I've always dreamed on making my own animation's.
-
well recently I've got the opportunity to start learning animation from scratch.

After a lot, and i mean lot's of checking out animation softwares
I got my hands on 2 software, which i going to choose from.
-
the first one is.. Anime Studio, the second one, is Animate Pro..
-
Now, my goal is, to make animations such as DBZ/Bleach/HNK style and etc..

So before I buy any of the two, I knew I had to ask for your help

I can't tell you how much it's important to me, that i will be able
to create all of the elements that i need, in One Animation software,
without the need to use photoshop and etc...

Such as, to be able to create Background's , (Like this)
Effects such As Energy Beam and Auras (Like this)
and more stuff that related to this ^
-
Now since I have no idea which software will give me the most
I ask for your assistance,

Which software will give me the abilities to make all ,or most
of the things i ask, Anime Studio or Animate Pro ?

Thank you for all the help, and sorry about my engrish.

Yosef.

PARKER · Post by **PARKER** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:21 am

Those backgrounds can be made in AS but i guess photoshop is better for that task.
The effects can be done in AS with no problem.

If you like anime you have to try a software that is good at making frame by frame animation and rightnow AS is not the best for it.

yosefdbz · Post by **yosefdbz** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:13 am

PARKER wrote:Those backgrounds can be made in AS but i guess photoshop is better for that task.
The effects can be done in AS with no problem.

If you like anime you have to try a software that is good at making frame by frame animation and rightnow AS is not the best for it.

Hello PARKER, thank you for the answer.
-
so for frame by frame animation, you recommend Animate Pro ?
(and why AS isn't Recommended ?)

About the backgrounds, do you know if in Animate Pro I can do do them?
(is that a problem to make those backgrounds in AS ?)

-
Thank you for your help.
(sorry for the nagging)

Yosef.

PARKER · Post by **PARKER** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:57 am

I dont know animate pro but i know its better for frame by frame than AS.
For that kind of Bgs is better to use photoshop.

slowtiger · Post by **slowtiger** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:06 am

If you are really interested in Frame-by-frame animation, you should have a look at TVPaint. http://www.tvpaint.com/v2/content/artic ... /index.php You can download a demo version.
Even the Pro package is only half the price of Toonboom, and the standard/student edition is even cheaper. You could upgrade any time later.

TVP is a bitmap based software with great tools for drawing and painting. I use it every day, and in combination with AnimeStudio.

Maybe you should re-think your idea of doing everything in just one software. Not even the big studios do that, and they have all those pricey all-in-one systems. Even the software you mentioned doesn't deliver complete films, but just the animation. Editing and sound still must be done in a video editing software.

crsP · Post by **crsP** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:06 pm

I think it's a good idea that people stop referring to Toon Boom's software as the name of the company, as it confuses things a lot. For example saying "Even the Pro package is only half the price of Toonboom..." in reference to TvPaint is wrong, as Toon Boom Animate is $699.99 [normal price], and TvPaint Pro is $1303.02, and even the standard edition of TvPaint is $651.51. Not as big a difference between both standard editions.

yosefdbz, you seem to indicate that you had looked at many different software before narrowing your choice down to either Animate or Anime Studio Pro, but, as you say you got the opportunity to learn animation from scratch, if you are enrolled as a student to learn animation, then you can buy Tvpaint [standard\pro] at educational prices. That will mean TvPaint at $342.9, and TvPaint Pro at $651.51. I believe that these licences aren't restricted, so you can do commercial work with them. Check with them before ordering, of course. It might be worth considering, as TvPaint can simulate natural media, so you would be able to recreate those backgrounds more authentically [based on your skill, obviously]. TvPaint [both editions] have no 'tweening' capabilities, as far as I know, so everything has to be drawn or painted etc. by you. I think the pro version has a compositor, with effects and you can do video editing to some level, so that might be considered.

Animate also relies on a lot of drawing [if you are going for traditional frame by frame] and has better drawing tools, which are more customisable, than in Anime Studio Pro. Animate can do the cut-out style too, and has forward and inverse kinematics [which ASP also has, and TvPaint lacks].

Anime Studio Pro has less emphasis on drawing, more on constructing. If you have familiarity with creating 3d models then you will feel more at home with ASP. If you are going to do a lot of point animation [moving vector points and having the computer interpolate between these positions], then ASP seems to be the stronger in that area. Also the cut-outs in ASP do not have to be separated parts, so you can get a better look to something such as an elbow bending [not sure if Animate can work in the same way]. Animate has morphing between strokes with different point numbers, ASP needs the shapes to have the same amount of points to 'tween' them.

Re-creating those type of backgrounds are going to be tough in ASP or Animate, so if you went for either, you'd probably need another app to create those. Artrage simulates natural media in a similar way as in Tvpaint, so that might be an option - and there is a free version available too. So that just leaves animation. And if you plan on doing a lot of frame by frame, as Parker says, you should probably go for Animate. There is a sale on now for Animate at $399.99.

One option is TvPaint with ASP - you can get pro version 6 for under $30, so it wont break the bank. I will recommend to avoid Anime Studio Debut, as they have not included any type of onion skinning, which will frustrate. So you can get the standard edition of TvPaint and ASP 6 for about the sale price of Animate, if you are eligible for the educational price.

yosefdbz · Post by **yosefdbz** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:51 pm

Wow crsP, I'm speechless, that was a great answer!

after reading your answer, I'll probably go for animate,
even tho i will also check out ASP trial.

As you guys were saying, I see i have no choice but to use a another
software to create those backgrounds.

-
Well, before i go, i must ask a couple more questions.

1. Will I be able to create the Effect's (Aura, Beams and etc) in Animate?

2. If you had to Recreate DBZ anime (minus the BG), which software will you choose ?

-
And again, I can't thank you enough, your very helpful.
and for that I'm honored you.

Yosef.

Rudiger · Post by **Rudiger** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:44 pm

There's this very talented 14 year old school boy (probably 15 by now), who does amazing Anime style animations just like you're describing, and he uses Photoshop for everything, including the animation! I think you will need CS4 or CS5 extended if you want to do animation, though.

His YouTube page is http://www.youtube.com/user/klFiretears and his DeviantArt page is http://klnothincomin.deviantart.com

He also has made quite a lot of tutorials showing his techniques, especially on how to animate some of the effects that are common to fighting Anime, similar to the ones that you referenced, so I highly recommend checking them out regardless of what software you end up choosing.

From what I've seen, for frame by frame animation, the software actually matters very little and it's your drawing skill that will really control what you are able to animate.

crsP · Post by **crsP** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:46 pm

If you choose TvPaint, you will be able to paint the backgrounds like in Artrage\Photoshop\Painter - all these are [mainly] bitmap based apps.

1) I am not sure, as I don't have an Intel based mac to even test the trial. I suggest to download the trial and try out a few simple effects. Also I will point out that many of those effects are not as high-tech as you may think [I'll expand on this]

2) If the aim was to re-create it as exact as the original, I would choose TvPaint. The reason being DBZ [like the shots you provide] was made in the traditional way on paper and traced and painted on cel acetate. If the aim was to create something like DBZ, with a lot of drawn frame by frame sequences, then I would choose Animate. The reason being Animate's morph tools look interesting for tweening. Not having used it, but seen it demonstrated in videos, I would have to test it out before. If the aim was a parody of DBZ, I would choose Anime Studio Pro. Reasons being, 1, I own it, 2, being a parody I can deviate slightly from the DBZ 'look', so can use the 'cheap tricks' like cut-out style and point animation. Also I had planned to do a DBZ parody... heh

Going back to the effects in DBZ, much of it is painting and airbrushing. Take for example the 'auras', like in the last two images of the link you provide. That just looks to me like a dry brush effect, probably on an overlay cel. Either airbrushing to soften the gradient or greasepaint or similar. The first image, the effect is a lot of optical illusion. The characters are painted in stark white and blue shadows, to suggest that the light from the energy ball is so bright, it washes out the colour. Black streaks are drawn with an airbrushed gradient behind the character, for added contrast. Also, in many anime, they use bloom. That is an intensly bright light shone from behind a masked area. The light is so bright that it appears to bleed out into surrounding areas, so things look like they have a glow to it, sort of. It's sometimes overdone, but it's in many anime productions. The reason I suggest you give TvPaint a second look is that, because it tries to simulate natural media, you could recreate the dry brush. Also I think it has filters, one of which could be bloom [you have to confirm this with a TvPaint user, or download the demo].

Finally, despite what I said previously, you could probably do it in all of them - what will vary is the difficulty. I tried to re-create, in ASP, one of the shots from your link to prove this. Because ASP is more about 'constructing' artwork, rather than drawing, it took me a bit of a long time to try and get something similar . However, the energy ball, which I did first, was constructed fairly quickly. This is ASP's strength - geometric shapes. Having said that, maybe you could use ASP for effects such as these, and hand draw the character animation in TvPaint? With the point animation in ASP, animating this thing pulsating and growing would be a breeze. Anyway here it is:

The first image is the original screen grab, the second is output directly from ASP with no changes, the third is the ASP render with bloom filter and some hue\contrast\brightness etc. tweaks. Notice the ASP render has the effect pretty much ready to go. If I had paid more attention, I could have not made the colours so saturated in the first place, which would better match the original. In the original, his clothes and hands are slightly washed out, which is another optical illusion to suggest the brightness of the energy ball. Oh, I also applied some tricks too, i.e. if you notice the hand on the ASP render, I hid some of the outlines where he touches the ball - this is sort of like fake bloom, where I suggest the bloom from the ball is erasing the outlines of his hand. Just noticed that was happening in the original, so just copied it, even though it may have just been an effect from the bloom they applied.

PARKER · Post by **PARKER** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:24 am

Really impressive job crsP, you have really shown what you are capable of and of course you have shown the great power of AS as well

Nice lighting effect.

yosefdbz · Post by **yosefdbz** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:42 pm

Wow, just wow.

-
Great answer +your greatly skilled with ASP, that was amazing job.
-
After reading your great answer, I see I probably will have to try ASP\AP\TVP separately
-
Since I can see it's no problem to make DBZ style in ASP+as you were saying
"animating this thing pulsating and growing would be a breeze"

If animating and creating characters+effects in ASP is easy+it gives great result.

I think it's no brainer that i will choose ASP.

-
well, i must admit, in the first place, i was sure i will go for AP, but now...

after seeing that it can be done in ASP +it's more cheep.

i think i will go for ASP,

but either way, i still going to try out ASP\AP\TVP, hope i will find my match.

---

crsP, thank you very much, you've Been extremely helpful.

PARKER, thank you two, your voice was also important in here.

-
now i'm going to download the trial, wish me luck

crsP · Post by **crsP** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:41 am

Thanks PARKER, but you flatter me too much - a lot of it is due to post process. I think it could be done many times better, but it was only a test.

yosefdbz, I want to clarify something for you. Yes, the fire ball would be easy to animate as I imagine, due to it’s simplistic underlining shape. But I didn’t say animating and creating characters in ASP is easy. Well it is, if you are going for the ‘cut-out’ style animation, which seems to have a specific look that is difficult to get away from. But the DBZ animation is frame by frame, which has it’s own look and feel. As PARKER points out, although you can do frame by frame in ASP, it is many times easier in Animate or TvPaint. Like I said before, ASP has shape construction tools rather than drawing tools [although it has a freehand drawing tool, but it has a tendency to over-smooth out your curves, leaving you with unexpected results]. A combination of ASP and TvPaint may give you all you need [background painting + Frame by frame + point and bone animation]. Believe me, I’m with you in wanting just one app to do all the artwork, but unfortunately each one seems to lack something the other may have. Only other advise I can give you is to do very simple mini projects when you are testing, then you get a feel for the workflow. It’s easy to try out a tool which is fantastic, but sometimes have limited use in practical projects!

Rudiger, that kid is incredible. His mechanical pencil drawings shows he has a good eye for detail and ability to copy. His coloured drawings and animations too show his ability to observe and replicate similar palettes to anime shows. However his animations are a bit lacking in skill. The problem seems to be that he tries too much to copy the cliches he sees in the anime. Looking at some of the videos of his workflow, he, in some cases doesn’t even have construction and goes straight in with Photoshop’s pen tool. I noticed a lot of his drawings had problems with the facial features swimming about the face. Going through the animations, there’s hardly any, it’s just tricks [like my attempt at DBZ] like panning with cycles of hair or clothes flapping. He at least does this in a decent way though, which means he can animate ‘waves’. But he doesn’t apply that to his other animation, which leads me to believe he is not understanding what’s going on beneath. Anyway he is only 15 and pretty awesome, so he can have fun now copying his favourite show, but when he decides to take it more serious and learn the methods, he should be a badass animator.

*Edit*

Forgot to add, I disagree with your statement that the software matters little in frame by frame. If ASP had better drawing tools, frame by frame hand drawn would be faster. Also, from looking at the kid’s workflow for animating, Photoshop makes some things more difficult or take longer. in Animate, or TvPaint, or similar, you can have next and previous onion skinning. In Photoshop, you have to hide layers, then change layer opacity, and if you want different colours for next or previous you have to do something like fill another layer with the colour you want, then change the layer mode. Doing that will slow you down, compared to just moving to the next frame with light table on. Also previewing your animation seems easier in animation specific programs, whereas in Photoshop, you have to lay down the layers you want visible on the frames [see his video] before you see the animation. Your statement only seems true in animation specific apps with similar functions.

Rudiger · Post by **Rudiger** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:43 pm

crsP wrote: Rudiger, that kid is incredible. His mechanical pencil drawings shows he has a good eye for detail and ability to copy. His coloured drawings and animations too show his ability to observe and replicate similar palettes to anime shows. However his animations are a bit lacking in skill. The problem seems to be that he tries too much to copy the cliches he sees in the anime. Looking at some of the videos of his workflow, he, in some cases doesn’t even have construction and goes straight in with Photoshop’s pen tool. I noticed a lot of his drawings had problems with the facial features swimming about the face. Going through the animations, there’s hardly any, it’s just tricks [like my attempt at DBZ] like panning with cycles of hair or clothes flapping. He at least does this in a decent way though, which means he can animate ‘waves’. But he doesn’t apply that to his other animation, which leads me to believe he is not understanding what’s going on beneath. Anyway he is only 15 and pretty awesome, so he can have fun now copying his favourite show, but when he decides to take it more serious and learn the methods, he should be a badass animator.

Yeah, but limited animation and the use of those standard cycles is fundamental to the Anime style, especially in TV Anime. Also, don't forget you are always going to see plenty of problems with facial features for certain angles in many commercial Anime productions as well.

From what I can tell, he is teaching himself to animate by copying keyframes from existing Anime scened, and that's pretty much how the professionals are trained. They start out as inbetween animators, then move onto key animation, etc. So yeah, if he continues down this path, I agree he could be a fantastic animator one day. God, I hope he doesn't become a lawyer or something, lol

.

crsP wrote: *Edit*

Forgot to add, I disagree with your statement that the software matters little in frame by frame. If ASP had better drawing tools, frame by frame hand drawn would be faster. Also, from looking at the kid’s workflow for animating, Photoshop makes some things more difficult or take longer. in Animate, or TvPaint, or similar, you can have next and previous onion skinning. In Photoshop, you have to hide layers, then change layer opacity, and if you want different colours for next or previous you have to do something like fill another layer with the colour you want, then change the layer mode. Doing that will slow you down, compared to just moving to the next frame with light table on. Also previewing your animation seems easier in animation specific programs, whereas in Photoshop, you have to lay down the layers you want visible on the frames [see his video] before you see the animation. Your statement only seems true in animation specific apps with similar functions.

I agree that there are features that could make his Photoshop workflow more efficient, but I don't think there are any deal-breakers when it comes to the quality of his output.

ruscular3d · Post by **ruscular3d** » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:03 am

This Thursday is their crazy spring sale! I think it's the cheapest they get for the year. $1000 off on the animate pro and $400 off the animate from toon boom one day sale!

Rudiger · Post by **Rudiger** » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:26 am

ruscular3d wrote:This Thursday is their crazy spring sale! I think it's the cheapest they get for the year. $1000 off on the animate pro and $400 off the animate from toon boom one day sale!

Thanks for the tip. I gotta say that I am extremely tempted to buy it after seeing how good the shape tweening is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hv6rX4ZlyM and being hugely impressed by the animation in shows that use it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toon_Boom_Animation.