SM needs to jump on this Character wizard idea before someon
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
SM needs to jump on this Character wizard idea before someon
I ended up sticking with as pro 7 and im currently waiting on as pro 8 to be refunded. One oviosly dissapointing feature was the CW, but you guys already know that. So i was thinking that with such a incomplete feature, SM has left open other animation programs to snatch this idea and make it perfect. All they have to do is read what us customers are ranting about it and they can build it off of that. A CW with a fully customizable body and you can swap out clothing would be huge. SM is talking now that it would be difficult to do so, but maybe they just arent capable of perfecting this feature. They have to jump on this feature before someone else does!! What do you think?
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ponysmasher
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Jump on it, how? What is 'incomplete' about the feature? You say customisable body and clothing, but you can customise the body and clothing once you select all the other attributes. Did you not read Lost Marble's post on this?
I've read some of the brouhaha about this character wizard and how 'useless' it is or how 'amazing' it is [but somehow has to 'evolve'], but it seems to me that the biggest problem is a lack of understanding what a 'wizard' is and its inherent limitations. It's just a macro - user gets to choose which parts to put together and do a bit of moving and sizing. Why are people expecting this automation script to create their characters? It can only output what was already created for the database. If you want a different body, or different clothes\accessories, then you just edit it afterwards. It wont take any less time doing that, or if you could edit the body. Want to use it again? Put it in the library or save it in a specific folder on your hard drive and use the import anime file option. Durrrrrrrrrr
Why waste any more time on this, when it's complete. It does what it says on the tin. You cannot create anything that hasn't been put in the database prior. It's just like Crazy Talk Animator. Difference is that CTA's business model is based on restricting creation tools in their program and charging for extra content. If you don't want to make your characters and wont\can't be bothered to animate, then go for that service CTA offers. If you're talking about customising and adding your own characters to the character wizard, then why bother with the character wizard in the first place? It's for people who don't want to go through those steps.
There has only been one single advantage to even bothering with the character wizard if you are the sort of person who wants to create their own characters and animate them. And that's going through the long winded process of modding the defaults to sell to those not willing to put in the effort themselves. All the other supposed advantages are just junk to me. Using actions between characters? Pft, why not use ponysmasher's script to load and save animations between characters? The example showed different proportioned characters using the same animations. Why restrict yourself to the rig in the CW? What's so super-advanced about it to make it easier to use than something you do yourself? From my observations, nothing. It's basic. And quite evident from the results, it sure doesn't give you any help with foot slippage in walk cycles. Speaking of which, you folks [the ones who are more experienced users\animators] really think that the walk cycle provided with the CW is acceptable? I'm looking at you there selgin... heh.
What are the advantages for someone who has no interest in using someone else's characters and animations? Somebody tell me!!! All I keep reading is hyperbole about this thing and how it can be useful to someone like me, or how it's an amazing tool that was able to get people animating who had AS since version dot but could never produce anything, yet at the same time want it developed and evolved? HOW?
Let me in your secret club!!! [not really...]
I've read some of the brouhaha about this character wizard and how 'useless' it is or how 'amazing' it is [but somehow has to 'evolve'], but it seems to me that the biggest problem is a lack of understanding what a 'wizard' is and its inherent limitations. It's just a macro - user gets to choose which parts to put together and do a bit of moving and sizing. Why are people expecting this automation script to create their characters? It can only output what was already created for the database. If you want a different body, or different clothes\accessories, then you just edit it afterwards. It wont take any less time doing that, or if you could edit the body. Want to use it again? Put it in the library or save it in a specific folder on your hard drive and use the import anime file option. Durrrrrrrrrr
Why waste any more time on this, when it's complete. It does what it says on the tin. You cannot create anything that hasn't been put in the database prior. It's just like Crazy Talk Animator. Difference is that CTA's business model is based on restricting creation tools in their program and charging for extra content. If you don't want to make your characters and wont\can't be bothered to animate, then go for that service CTA offers. If you're talking about customising and adding your own characters to the character wizard, then why bother with the character wizard in the first place? It's for people who don't want to go through those steps.
There has only been one single advantage to even bothering with the character wizard if you are the sort of person who wants to create their own characters and animate them. And that's going through the long winded process of modding the defaults to sell to those not willing to put in the effort themselves. All the other supposed advantages are just junk to me. Using actions between characters? Pft, why not use ponysmasher's script to load and save animations between characters? The example showed different proportioned characters using the same animations. Why restrict yourself to the rig in the CW? What's so super-advanced about it to make it easier to use than something you do yourself? From my observations, nothing. It's basic. And quite evident from the results, it sure doesn't give you any help with foot slippage in walk cycles. Speaking of which, you folks [the ones who are more experienced users\animators] really think that the walk cycle provided with the CW is acceptable? I'm looking at you there selgin... heh.
What are the advantages for someone who has no interest in using someone else's characters and animations? Somebody tell me!!! All I keep reading is hyperbole about this thing and how it can be useful to someone like me, or how it's an amazing tool that was able to get people animating who had AS since version dot but could never produce anything, yet at the same time want it developed and evolved? HOW?
Let me in your secret club!!! [not really...]
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funksmaname
- Posts: 3174
- Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 11:31 am
- Location: New Zealand
imo they should jump on it from a great height with very large boots.
but regardless, i really think the biggest cause of confusion is that there's a two distinct groups of people using AS. The 'crazy talk' 'jib jab' newbies who just want to try and get something done, and animators who are actually using the software for work (pro's for want of a better description).
The CW has sort of created a tug of war between these two factions, plus you have people stuck in the middle not knowing which way to pull...
Yes, for us old timers and 'pro' users, we try to encourage the newbies to 'do it right' - learn to draw/rig/animate - but we're assuming they are actually willing to put in the work when they probably just want to make a couple of youtube videos before getting bored and moving on to other things.
AS Pro shouldn't have the CW, there should really be a separate development thread for Pro as a product to avoid this confusion. A clearer devide between debut and pro would result in both camps being much happier and less confused...
The biggest worry for me is that the tug of war is actually a fight for the developers attention - and the reason it's actually happening is because neither camp want the other to win, especially as simplifaction tools have been a forcus for AS development for a while now... I just hope Smith Micro don't choose one over the other (and if they do, they go in the Pro direction
[he says - adding wood to the fire])
but regardless, i really think the biggest cause of confusion is that there's a two distinct groups of people using AS. The 'crazy talk' 'jib jab' newbies who just want to try and get something done, and animators who are actually using the software for work (pro's for want of a better description).
The CW has sort of created a tug of war between these two factions, plus you have people stuck in the middle not knowing which way to pull...
Yes, for us old timers and 'pro' users, we try to encourage the newbies to 'do it right' - learn to draw/rig/animate - but we're assuming they are actually willing to put in the work when they probably just want to make a couple of youtube videos before getting bored and moving on to other things.
AS Pro shouldn't have the CW, there should really be a separate development thread for Pro as a product to avoid this confusion. A clearer devide between debut and pro would result in both camps being much happier and less confused...
The biggest worry for me is that the tug of war is actually a fight for the developers attention - and the reason it's actually happening is because neither camp want the other to win, especially as simplifaction tools have been a forcus for AS development for a while now... I just hope Smith Micro don't choose one over the other (and if they do, they go in the Pro direction
[he says - adding wood to the fire])But funksmaname, just like Riziam, you speak in the future tense. But they have already 'jumped' on it. The bandwagon is loaded and in motion.
I can't agree with your summary of the situation - I don't fit any of the 'factions' you describe. The 'pro' \ 'hobbyist' separation is an argument of semantics, to me. I for instance have ASP7, but have not made even a red cent from its use, so I am not a 'pro'. On the other hand, I saw what looked like a tv commercial posted on youtube with a mix of live action and animation from Anime Studio. Literally - it used 'Lenny' doing that skinhead stomp he does, and that egg tree thing. I recognised them immediately from when I was learning the ropes in Moho. Now it could be a student practising their craft, but the non-AS bits had way more effort put in.
My point is, even 'pros' [and I mean that in the sense of those getting paid] will probably use the CW. As is. I'm sure you've seen AS animation of dubious quality made for commercial reasons. It doesn't bother me if 'newbies' or otherwise want to use the pre-fabs of the CW. Or if someone wants to make a load of crap and call it their 'style'. I only encourage those who show an interest and willingness for self improvement and a desire to learn the craft. The rest can make their works of fart all day long. I only object to those who are too lazy to learn or lack the ability, but try to put others interested in quality and entertaining people down with their nonsensical chants that in a visual medium, it's story that matters. And to top it off they can barely write, much-less craft an engaging story, animated or otherwise.
So no, I don't think CW should be removed from ASP. But I do think it shouldn't be so visible - that big-ass button serving little to no use. They should have it as is for debut [to make it obvious for the newcomers to dive right in], but it should be activated in the drop down menu for pro, simply because it'll be a lesser used function, and should therefore not be taking up valuable screen real estate. Those who want it, can have it. There's no winning in my view, and I don't see it as a loss to me that they get someone to make the characters and animations for them.
But the fact is the development 'team' is Lost Marble. And I am saying people want this CW to 'evolve' and be improved' or be 'completed', but no ideas of this are offered. It was explained by LM why the body cannot be changed. Probably can in CTA, but LM implemented it in a different way. Most likely to save time re-creating different bodies for different proportions, a more 'generic' and slightly ambiguous body was needed. And using sciencificated programming methods, the computer re-fits the body to what the user dials. Whatever the case, it serves it's purpose. Those looking to D.I.Y have the whole idea of a macro confused. You can get things like greeting card creators, or cd cover creators. All use macros [or wizards, for the uninitiated], and work in the same general way as the CW. Have the same general flaws. I.e. your stuff is going to look like other peoples. You do't create with them, rather you choose options, move sliders, press dials, but it all feeds from the database already provided. you want your specific card or cd design? Use Inkscape or similar. Same with CW. You think CW default characters are sub-par, and still refuse to make your own? Put up a job ad in this forum and pay someone to make them for you.
I can't agree with your summary of the situation - I don't fit any of the 'factions' you describe. The 'pro' \ 'hobbyist' separation is an argument of semantics, to me. I for instance have ASP7, but have not made even a red cent from its use, so I am not a 'pro'. On the other hand, I saw what looked like a tv commercial posted on youtube with a mix of live action and animation from Anime Studio. Literally - it used 'Lenny' doing that skinhead stomp he does, and that egg tree thing. I recognised them immediately from when I was learning the ropes in Moho. Now it could be a student practising their craft, but the non-AS bits had way more effort put in.
My point is, even 'pros' [and I mean that in the sense of those getting paid] will probably use the CW. As is. I'm sure you've seen AS animation of dubious quality made for commercial reasons. It doesn't bother me if 'newbies' or otherwise want to use the pre-fabs of the CW. Or if someone wants to make a load of crap and call it their 'style'. I only encourage those who show an interest and willingness for self improvement and a desire to learn the craft. The rest can make their works of fart all day long. I only object to those who are too lazy to learn or lack the ability, but try to put others interested in quality and entertaining people down with their nonsensical chants that in a visual medium, it's story that matters. And to top it off they can barely write, much-less craft an engaging story, animated or otherwise.
So no, I don't think CW should be removed from ASP. But I do think it shouldn't be so visible - that big-ass button serving little to no use. They should have it as is for debut [to make it obvious for the newcomers to dive right in], but it should be activated in the drop down menu for pro, simply because it'll be a lesser used function, and should therefore not be taking up valuable screen real estate. Those who want it, can have it. There's no winning in my view, and I don't see it as a loss to me that they get someone to make the characters and animations for them.
But the fact is the development 'team' is Lost Marble. And I am saying people want this CW to 'evolve' and be improved' or be 'completed', but no ideas of this are offered. It was explained by LM why the body cannot be changed. Probably can in CTA, but LM implemented it in a different way. Most likely to save time re-creating different bodies for different proportions, a more 'generic' and slightly ambiguous body was needed. And using sciencificated programming methods, the computer re-fits the body to what the user dials. Whatever the case, it serves it's purpose. Those looking to D.I.Y have the whole idea of a macro confused. You can get things like greeting card creators, or cd cover creators. All use macros [or wizards, for the uninitiated], and work in the same general way as the CW. Have the same general flaws. I.e. your stuff is going to look like other peoples. You do't create with them, rather you choose options, move sliders, press dials, but it all feeds from the database already provided. you want your specific card or cd design? Use Inkscape or similar. Same with CW. You think CW default characters are sub-par, and still refuse to make your own? Put up a job ad in this forum and pay someone to make them for you.
Honestly, I think peoples would have been more pleased with it if it had better pre-made parts and characters.
Even the animation is rather basic, if they add better characters and better actions, I am sure this would calm down peoples.
I played with it for about an hour, and decided not to use it and I think it may well play in the hobbyist arena, but I also think it will make those who would like to become professional animators lazy.
I say it should have been a Debut feature at best, but then again, the pro users would have felt cheated.
My bit is to let go of this feature, use it as is, as mentioned crsP, as it does what it is supposed to do, and let's put programming time on useful tools and bugs fixing.
Even the animation is rather basic, if they add better characters and better actions, I am sure this would calm down peoples.
I played with it for about an hour, and decided not to use it and I think it may well play in the hobbyist arena, but I also think it will make those who would like to become professional animators lazy.
I say it should have been a Debut feature at best, but then again, the pro users would have felt cheated.
My bit is to let go of this feature, use it as is, as mentioned crsP, as it does what it is supposed to do, and let's put programming time on useful tools and bugs fixing.
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funksmaname
- Posts: 3174
- Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 11:31 am
- Location: New Zealand
personally i'm not sure if i have MORE of a problem with the pre-built animations than the characters themselves... give a circle to an animator and he can make a ball with character - give it weight and personality. Give someone the animation and really there's not much left to do other than move some layers and hit render.
Anyway, this is a discussion without a possible conclusion - i've grown oblivious of the CW button, so for me it doesn't even register as taking up space. I've never used the 3D functions, and from my (admitedly rudimentry) experimentations the physics engine ONLY responds to the setup in frame 0, rather than taking ongoing movement into account which renders it pretty useless unless throwing lenny down a steep hill is all you plan to do with it... there's been a pattern of throwing in glitz functionality without much ongoing refinement for a while now.
btw, I don't mean to sound elitist when I speak of 'pros' - i'm not an animator, and although i'm occasionally paid for a bit of animation here and there, i see myself firmly as a hobbyest/learning animator - but still, for me the most actually useful additions are ones to improve workflow and or visual improvements (i.e. the round caps and quick vector selection)
Anyway, this is a discussion without a possible conclusion - i've grown oblivious of the CW button, so for me it doesn't even register as taking up space. I've never used the 3D functions, and from my (admitedly rudimentry) experimentations the physics engine ONLY responds to the setup in frame 0, rather than taking ongoing movement into account which renders it pretty useless unless throwing lenny down a steep hill is all you plan to do with it... there's been a pattern of throwing in glitz functionality without much ongoing refinement for a while now.
btw, I don't mean to sound elitist when I speak of 'pros' - i'm not an animator, and although i'm occasionally paid for a bit of animation here and there, i see myself firmly as a hobbyest/learning animator - but still, for me the most actually useful additions are ones to improve workflow and or visual improvements (i.e. the round caps and quick vector selection)
With the help of Mike on the animator's forum I turned my library and chacter wizarb buttons into L and W by adding a Strings.EN.txt with this text in it.
/Windows/MainLayer/CharacterWizard=W
/Windows/MainLayer/Library=L
/Menus/File/Import/AnimeStudioObject=AnimeStudioObject...I
/Menus/Edit/SelectInverse=SelectInverse
/Windows/MainLayer/CharacterWizard=W
/Windows/MainLayer/Library=L
/Menus/File/Import/AnimeStudioObject=AnimeStudioObject...I
/Menus/Edit/SelectInverse=SelectInverse
Last edited by GCharb on Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Víctor Paredes
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Hi, crsP. I just answered you in another post. Now I spent some more time reading this one (long posts in english are harder to digest because to me).crsP wrote:Speaking of which, you folks [the ones who are more experienced users\animators] really think that the walk cycle provided with the CW is acceptable? I'm looking at you there selgin... heh.
I don't like the walkcycles CW generates. So, don't worry, we agree on that. I actually have made my own walks for the character wizard, I like the idea of sharing actions and apply them on characters of different proportions, I think it can be useful in some cases.
About the CW button, I agree with you. I don't like it using space on my bar, I hope there be an option to hide it in future versions.
Moho Product Manager
www.mohoanimation.com
Rigged animation supervisor in My father's dragon - Lead Moho artist in Wolfwalkers - Cartoon Saloon - My personal Youtube Channel
I've tried to make something to play with using the Character Wizard. I figured I'd make some kind of general character that I could modify as I please.
The problem with this is that the character it creates is very difficult to modify and I have to modify it in several views. If I knew more about what I was doing that might work out but as it is I find it easier to start from scratch.
I may try just using the bones and setup and adding my own graphics. Actually I just thought of that as I was typing this so I haven't tried it yet. That might work out.
In any case, my point is that I don't think it's a good tool for unskilled amateurs. I suspect that was their target but nearly all the criticism I've seen of it so far is about why it isn't useful to professionals. So my guess is that SM won't get much useful feedback about how to improve it for amateurs and might not care about improving it for professionals.
Barry
The problem with this is that the character it creates is very difficult to modify and I have to modify it in several views. If I knew more about what I was doing that might work out but as it is I find it easier to start from scratch.
I may try just using the bones and setup and adding my own graphics. Actually I just thought of that as I was typing this so I haven't tried it yet. That might work out.
In any case, my point is that I don't think it's a good tool for unskilled amateurs. I suspect that was their target but nearly all the criticism I've seen of it so far is about why it isn't useful to professionals. So my guess is that SM won't get much useful feedback about how to improve it for amateurs and might not care about improving it for professionals.
Barry