Curves are lumpy around the nodes.

General Moho topics.

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strider2000
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Re: Curves are lumpy around the nodes.

Post by strider2000 »

I just took a look on my systems and will share what I'm seeing.

Surface Pro
I have the original Surface Pro, with the Wacom pen and do not get the lollipops. Your results look very much to me like a pressure sensitivity tracking issue. Given that N-trig is supposed to have around 256 vs 1024 for Surface Pro (2048 for Cintiq) it makes sense. You may be able to fix it by adjusting the sensitivity curves, but I've never done it for N-trig (only Wacom). If you turn smoothing off you should be able to tell, because you'll get a ton more points and the pressure should be associated with individual points.

Pea Pod appearance
I do see it, but not as pronounced. I tried altering the stroke thickness per point, and even curvature. I don't know how ASP is calculating stroke thickness, but what appears to be happening is that there's not a smooth continuity between the thickness associated with one point and the next. I think the think that is affecting Fonce Falooda the most is both
- a few number of points (transition doesn't have a lot of steps)
- taper on and off is set

I don't think it's the exact same thing, but Fonce, you may want to take a look at thin constant strokes in a curved line and then adjust the curvature at single points. You'll start to see a lumpy type of curvature that somewhat resembles the outline of the stroke. Like I said, I don't think it's the same, but ASP may be using a similar approach for the line itself and the outline of a stroke, esp since people have pointed out the bezier is not used.

Finally try turning smoothing on and drawing a straight line with pen pressure and taper turned on for start and end :o

Too few points to give you what you expect. I think ASP has gotten much better, but probably still not quite where Fonce Falooda would like.
Fonce Falooda
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Re: Curves are lumpy around the nodes.

Post by Fonce Falooda »

Ha HAAA! Solved the problem I wasn't that worried about. Those damn lollipop lines were because of... FLICK GESTURES! Turned them off and now lines start fine. "Control Panel/Pen and Touch/Change Tablet Pen Settings/Flicks" UGH!!!!!

Image

Makes sense, but it's stupid. Every time the pen was touching the screen, the damn Surface was hesitating, waiting to see if I was trying to communicate with it through Flicks, then when it decided I wasn't, it let me draw something. Nice. :\ Anyway, THAT problem's solved, for anyone else who might ever encounter it.


Strider and DJ - As for my Pea Pods, I could add more points to minimize the effect, but it'd still bother me. I think sculpting the shapes of the lines I want would work, but it would take a lot longer and ultimately wouldn't be very fun. I could draw twelve heads in Flash in the time it would take me to sculpt one this way.

That said, I bought the three-pack of multi-brushes from Distinct Sun, and the dirty lines camouflage the issue pretty nicely. I still would love the line quality I've been using for a while, but I'm gonna think seriously about using grungy lines instead.

Thanks, everyone! :)
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Lost Marble
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Re: Curves are lumpy around the nodes.

Post by Lost Marble »

Fonce Falooda wrote:I'm definitely getting a "can't keep up" feel in ASP on the Surface that I don't get in Photoshop. It's like it's not prepared for the new line to happen, even if it's the first one. Then after a couple, it realizes what it's doing and starts catching them, but the first couple are ridiculously gloppy.

And I'm blaming the n-trig pen/drivers because the second I hook up my little intuos touch/pen tablet, it draws fine. And the n-trig pen draws fine in Photoshop, so I just figured it was an incompatibility between n-trig and ASP. (Yes, I've been installing and uninstalling the appropriate drivers to test each configuration. ;) )
Hey guys, at least part of this should be improved in ASP 11.1. It's not the n-trig drivers, it's what Windows thinks the Surface Pro pen is supposed to be used for. Windows has these "flick" gestures that you can do with the Surface Pro pen. A quick flick up or sideways can be used to undo or go back a page in a web browser or something like that. The problem is, these gestures cause delays when drawing with the pen - at the start of a line drawing, Windows first has to decide if this is a flick, or if it will continue into an actual curve.

Anime Studio 11.1 tells Windows not to send it flick gestures. This makes the pen interaction more suitable for drawing. If you're using a version prior to 11.1, you can turn off flick gestures globally for all of Windows.

Edit: Whoops - I didn't see the second page of this thread. You already found how to turn off flicks. But 11.1 should ignore them anyway, so you can turn them back on if you want to use them in other applications. Check out 11.1 for other big improvements on the Surface Pro 3.
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Greenlaw
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Re: Curves are lumpy around the nodes.

Post by Greenlaw »

I never would have figured that one out, and it's good to know for other drawing programs which may have this same problem.

Thanks to both of you for posting the info. :D

G.
Fonce Falooda
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Re: Curves are lumpy around the nodes.

Post by Fonce Falooda »

Lost Marble- Hey! Yeah, maybe I will install that update after all. ;)

Glad we were both right about the Flicks. :) And you must have noticed my "Pea Pod" issue. You don't have to commit to anything right now, but please consider tweaking the way the curves are displayed. I think it'd be well worth the effort.

Thanks!
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Re: Curves are lumpy around the nodes.

Post by Fonce Falooda »

Okay, holy f*cking crap. This update, with the bezier things... I can make lines like I want!

(wait for it...)

EXCEPT! It requires that I take every line I make and tweak the beziers in the same way, every time. I have to essentially drag the FINAL point's beziers onto itself, and extend the previous one's out.

Here's a pic and a render of the before and after...
Image

Image

See how getting rid of the first and final point's beziers AND extending the beziers next to them to compensate makes the lines super pretty!!!

I NEED a checkbox in the next update that can make this automatic. It has to be the simplest tweak to do, ever!!! Please, Mike? Victor? Somebody?!!!

So close, I can taste it!!! :D
chucky
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Re: Curves are lumpy around the nodes.

Post by chucky »

Hey nice discovery Fonce, this is well worth reporting!
I'll get to it right away and point a link to this post.
Betas have a look for it and support :D
Cool !
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Greenlaw
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Re: Curves are lumpy around the nodes.

Post by Greenlaw »

I wonder if it has to do with how pen pressure is interpreted by the program, which may vary by hardware and user input. For example, my stylus-drawn vector curves in Clip Studio Paint looked like the first example until I adjusted the curves setting in the program--I had to essentially make it less sensitive at lighter end of the curve. I haven't used Painter for some time but I recall adjusting pressure sensitivity there too.

Maybe Moho needs a pressure curve setting? Just a thought.
Last edited by Greenlaw on Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fonce Falooda
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Re: Curves are lumpy around the nodes.

Post by Fonce Falooda »

Hey! Yes, please. Tell anyone who'll listen! :)

It feels like every point in the line is being treated the same way, in an attempt to maintain the exact curve you drew, which makes sense. But I think the lines look much better if you treat the end points differently.

I'd be surprised if this couldn't be folded right into the "Taper" settings in the Freehand tool options window, with a little extra checkbox labelled, "Taper Smoothing" or something.

Holding my breath for 12.1! :D
chucky
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Re: Curves are lumpy around the nodes.

Post by chucky »

Yes , I have been thinking that, another variable , pressure
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