Moho 12

General Moho topics.

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synthsin75
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Re: Moho 12

Post by synthsin75 »

Manu wrote:Oh no, that's not good. Why not finish the job you started? If you implement SVG import, do it properly. To read layers in as layers is such a no-brainer.
Can SVG layers be exported to individual SVGs fairly easily? If so, I could modify the SVG sequence importer I'm working on to not animate them as a sequence.
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Manu
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Re: Moho 12

Post by Manu »

synthsin75 wrote: Can SVG layers be exported to individual SVGs fairly easily? If so, I could modify the SVG sequence importer I'm working on to not animate them as a sequence.
That depends on the design software you're using to create the SVG in the first place. If it can be scripted, you probably can export layers as individual SVGs. Adobe Illustrator probably can do that. It wouldn't surprise me if someone out there has already written a JavaScript to do just that.

Personally, I'm using Affinity Designer which can't be scripted, so no luck there. I can't speak for Corel Draw or any of the other ones out there.
herbert123
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Re: Moho 12

Post by herbert123 »

Arghh. I would love to update my version 11 pro, but the Canadian dollar conversion rate is terrible. I'd be paying more than twice the amount to update compared to the update from version 10 to 11.

I guess I will have to wait. Perhaps when a project comes up.

Frustrating. Finally a version I feel I would be comfy with, and the update cost is in my way. Sigh. :cry:
-RR-
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Re: Moho 12

Post by -RR- »

Psmith wrote:I do believe that what Moho now offers surpasses, in terms of empowering individual animators, what all of the other "Professional" 2D applications provide.
Hey Greg - or anybody - how do the triangular meshes in Moho compare with the plastic tool in Opentoonz?
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Reindeer
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Re: Moho 12

Post by Reindeer »

Ok, I'm giving Moho a run-in. So far it's totally delivering the hype :)
I haven't gone into meshes and stuff but I already can say that the multiple layer editing is a monumental improvement. Heaven sent, as far as I'm concerned. It's going to make working faster and more reliable. Drawing tools have also improved as described. I can see myself drawing more in a more natural fashion, now. I am happy I chose ASP11 back in November to develop a pretty large project I'm still working on and now I'm even happier to have Moho. Great update!

Just a couple of questions... I've come across only two things that I can't figure out as compared to ASP11.
One: while drawing Freehand, in ASP11 I could completely exclude any kind of automatic connection between strokes by just turning off Auto-Weld and Merge Strokes. With Moho, even with these two settings off, when a stroke touches another stroke, they still seem to connect (little red 'connect' dot appears). Am I ignoring something, or has this changed?
Two: when I open a new document the Display Quality is set by default to 'Fade Unselected Layers'. I personally prefer to see all my layers, so in ASP11 I always have this off. But here in Moho I can't seem to get to stay off, either on opening new documents or even reopening existing ones. As far as I can see I must go and uncheck that every time. Looked up the prefs, didn't' find any setting for that (but might have missed it, I'll check again).
Thanks!
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synthsin75
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Re: Moho 12

Post by synthsin75 »

-RR- wrote:
Psmith wrote:I do believe that what Moho now offers surpasses, in terms of empowering individual animators, what all of the other "Professional" 2D applications provide.
Hey Greg - or anybody - how do the triangular meshes in Moho compare with the plastic tool in Opentoonz?
Moho is much more customizable and versatile. I'm not even sure if OpenToonz can animate the points of the plastic tool mesh, but even if it can, it will only generate a uniform mesh.
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Re: Moho 12

Post by ernesttx »

-RR-

In my opinion, the Smart Warp mesh in Moho 12 is more interact and configurable. In Opentoonz, you don't have control over the mesh creation or individual mesh points; plus, you aren't able to animate the individual mesh points in Opentoonz. Comparisonwise, Opentoons is like a puppet creation tool; in Moho you are able to create a puppet rig with bones (similiar to OT) and animate the mesh itself.

I was able to try out the new Smart warp last night and was quite pleased with how it's been implemented. I'll be walking it through in the next days to see what the best approach to a pipeline is for my movie. I'm getting great results so far.

Also, Pin bones are looking to be a great alternate to regular bones in some of the movements I will need to make to the characters. Thank you Mike for those. All in all, I can say I was hoping to use OT's Puppet tools but they aren't fully as robust as Moho's Smart warp.
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synthsin75
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Re: Moho 12

Post by synthsin75 »

Reindeer wrote:Just a couple of questions... I've come across only two things that I can't figure out as compared to ASP11.
One: while drawing Freehand, in ASP11 I could completely exclude any kind of automatic connection between strokes by just turning off Auto-Weld and Merge Strokes. With Moho, even with these two settings off, when a stroke touches another stroke, they still seem to connect (little red 'connect' dot appears). Am I ignoring something, or has this changed?
Two: when I open a new document the Display Quality is set by default to 'Fade Unselected Layers'. I personally prefer to see all my layers, so in ASP11 I always have this off. But here in Moho I can't seem to get to stay off, either on opening new documents or even reopening existing ones. As far as I can see I must go and uncheck that every time. Looked up the prefs, didn't' find any setting for that (but might have missed it, I'll check again).
Thanks!
1. I don't remember the exact reasoning behind it, but if you have auto-stroke disabled, it will try to weld, but only to an end point (probably to make it easier to freehand closed shapes without auto-close changing your art). Since you can only see the vectors while drawing without auto-stroke, it makes some sense that you might be more concerned with construction than stroke. But with auto-stroke on, you can't see the vectors, so expression is more important than construction. Generally, more traditional freehand tools are meant to be used with auto-stroke.

2. I haven't seen that happen. If turning it off and saving a file didn't do it, you might try enabling "Save and restore viewport settings in document" in the Documents tab of the preferences. What is your startup file set to?
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Reindeer
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Re: Moho 12

Post by Reindeer »

synthsin75 wrote:
Reindeer wrote:Just a couple of questions... I've come across only two things that I can't figure out as compared to ASP11.
One: while drawing Freehand, in ASP11 I could completely exclude any kind of automatic connection between strokes by just turning off Auto-Weld and Merge Strokes. With Moho, even with these two settings off, when a stroke touches another stroke, they still seem to connect (little red 'connect' dot appears). Am I ignoring something, or has this changed?
Two: when I open a new document the Display Quality is set by default to 'Fade Unselected Layers'. I personally prefer to see all my layers, so in ASP11 I always have this off. But here in Moho I can't seem to get to stay off, either on opening new documents or even reopening existing ones. As far as I can see I must go and uncheck that every time. Looked up the prefs, didn't' find any setting for that (but might have missed it, I'll check again).
Thanks!
1. I don't remember the exact reasoning behind it, but if you have auto-stroke disabled, it will try to weld, but only to an end point (probably to make it easier to freehand closed shapes without auto-close changing your art). Since you can only see the vectors while drawing without auto-stroke, it makes some sense that you might be more concerned with construction than stroke. But with auto-stroke on, you can't see the vectors, so expression is more important than construction. Generally, more traditional freehand tools are meant to be used with auto-stroke.

2. I haven't seen that happen. If turning it off and saving a file didn't do it, you might try enabling "Save and restore viewport settings in document" in the Documents tab of the preferences. What is your startup file set to?

Ok, so the Fade unselected layers thing just put itself right somehow :) I guess you were right about saving. Just one save (hadn't saved anything as Moho yet) and now even new docs open with the Fade off. Solved!
As for the strokes connecting, I still can't make to work like in ASP11. It seems to behave differently. (since I'm FH drawing, I naturally have auto-stroke enabled).
Say I draw two simple single strokes, or lines, in such a way that the end of the second stroke meets or touches the end of the first one. Or simply if the second stroke begins from one of the extremities of the first one. With ASP11, if I have Auto-Weld and Merge Strokes off, nothing will happen, the two strokes will stay independent. In Moho, as far as I can see, even with those two off, the strokes will forcibly unite. I can actually see this as being potentially annoying whilst freehand drawing.
Last edited by Reindeer on Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Psmith
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Re: Moho 12

Post by Psmith »

Regarding Moho's Smart Mesh functionality compared to OpenToonz' Plastic Tool functionality - OpenToonz implementation is more straightforward and quick to setup. The fact that Plastic Tool "Nodes" (bones) can be given a sorting order "on the fly" makes it the best choice for creating 3D simulated character turns of every variety. It's fun, actually, to use - needing very few Nodes to create an animated character that behaves as you would expect. Like Moho - both Vectors or Images can be used. It's brilliant, really.

In the case of Moho's "Smart Mesh", like all "deep" software functionality - a lot more manual tweaking is required - which rewards the user with a very specific mesh for every deformation case. If you like to fiddle - "Smart Meshes" are for you. As far as producing animated sorting order of Smart Mesh triangles - this seems like a nightmare to me - since there is no visual representation of depth once a set of triangles has been "sorted" - "Let's see, which ones are doing what . . . ? When?"

Whereas, with OpenToonz Plastic Nodes, each Node can be depth "sorted" at the time you need to raise or lower only that portion of the Mesh. The Node, itself, is the Marker that indicates which Mesh portion you are dealing with. This makes animating an arm and hand, composed of one single mesh, for instance, easy, yet incredibly variable. As an arm is moving, you can position just the hand in front of or in back of another part of the same mesh - just by assigning a value to one single Plastic Node - and just as quickly - return it to its previous depth. Or, if you need just the elbow portion of the arm to move behind the body, for instance (where both the arm and the body exist within the same Plastic Mesh), only the "elbow" Node need be dealt with.

Moho depth sorting, on the other hand, requires whole Shapes or whole Layers to be sorted. Imagine setting up an arm that works as described above, for example - how would you accomplish this? A simple arm and hand would have to be composed of multiple Shapes or Layers - a single Shape cannot be Depth Sorted.

Whew! So much to setup and manipulate . . . and fiddle with!

The advantages of the Smart Mesh over Plastic Meshes consist of their ability to be distorted with or without the addition of Bones, all Mesh points having the ability to be animated with "Point Animation" - so using something like the "Magnet Tool" works really well. (However, once a Smart Mesh Layer becomes a subset or child of a Bone Layer, it can no longer be distorted independently - its distortion properties are overridden). And, as far as my experiments have shown, once a Smart Mesh becomes the child of a Bone Layer - depth sorting of its triangular (connected) shapes is disabled.

Also, outside the question of Bones and Depth Sorting, the density of the Mesh can be varied for regions that require it (i.e. eyes, mouth).

Here's the main dilemma with Smart Meshes: Their functions are only valuable when the Mesh Layer IS NOT a subset of a Bone Layer. Bones already distort Shapes using an invisible Mesh Layer. This invisible Bone Mesh Layer immediately takes control of all of its Child Layers - rendering a Smart Mesh impotent, when it is also a child of a Bone Layer.

So, the Rule is this: a Smart Mesh can only be moved and function as a distorting Mesh when it is NOT a child of a Bone Layer, and it exists independently - while being assigned as a distorting Mesh for a Layer that also is NOT a child of a Bone Layer. A Smart Mesh Layer essentially becomes useless, once it becomes a child of a Bone Layer.

I might add that it is Moho's ability to animate Point Motion that particularly sets it apart from OpenToonz Plastic Meshes - and which gives Smart Meshes their power - and make Moho quite fast and fun to use apart from this focused Smart Mesh functionality.

Greg Smith
Last edited by Psmith on Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Moho 12

Post by synthsin75 »

Reindeer wrote:As for the strokes connecting, it seems to behave differently than in ASP11. Since I'm FH drawing, I of course have auto-stroke enabled.
Say I draw two simple single strokes, or lines, in such a way that the end of the second stroke meets or touches the end of the first one. Or simply if the second stroke begins from one of the extremities of the first one. With ASP11, if I have Auto-Weld and Merge Strokes off, nothing will happen, the two strokes will stay independent. In Moho, as far as I can see, even with those two off, the strokes will forcibly unite. I can actually see this as being potentially annoying whilst freehand drawing.
Um...now I'm seeing that too. I seem to recall Chucky talking about this somewhere (weld ends option?).

...

Okay, there are two small changes you can make to the freehand tool to completely disable welding when auto-weld is disabled. You'll want to copy the stock tool to your custom content folder before modifying it. I think you can enable line numbers in Notepad.

Line 338 needs to be changed to this:
if (false--[[closestID >= 0]]) then -- attach to an existing point

And line 741 needs to look like this:
--mesh:WeldPoints(endPoint, bindEndTo, moho.drawingLayerFrame)
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Reindeer
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Re: Moho 12

Post by Reindeer »

synthsin75 wrote:
Reindeer wrote:As for the strokes connecting, it seems to behave differently than in ASP11. Since I'm FH drawing, I of course have auto-stroke enabled.
Say I draw two simple single strokes, or lines, in such a way that the end of the second stroke meets or touches the end of the first one. Or simply if the second stroke begins from one of the extremities of the first one. With ASP11, if I have Auto-Weld and Merge Strokes off, nothing will happen, the two strokes will stay independent. In Moho, as far as I can see, even with those two off, the strokes will forcibly unite. I can actually see this as being potentially annoying whilst freehand drawing.
Um...now I'm seeing that too. I seem to recall Chucky talking about this somewhere (weld ends option?).

...

Okay, there are two small changes you can make to the freehand tool to completely disable welding when auto-weld is disabled. You'll want to copy the stock tool to your custom content folder before modifying it. I think you can enable line numbers in Notepad.

Line 338 needs to be changed to this:
if (false--[[closestID >= 0]]) then -- attach to an existing point

And line 741 needs to look like this:
--mesh:WeldPoints(endPoint, bindEndTo, moho.drawingLayerFrame)

Thank you. I'll see if I can do that. I'm pretty bad at anything under the hood :)
I hope this doesn't sound like 'tweak it to my taste', I know it's never right to project one's drawing habits on to the rest of the world, but I think this might be worth correcting (or, actually, reverting to as-it-was) in some near-future update. I actually might prefer to wait for that than tamper (I know it sounds uncool to admit to that :) )
There are many instances in which I can imagine this little trap as taking away some of the spontaneity from FH drawing in Moho. Say, shading by hatched strokes, which traditionally need to be quick and fresh. I just tried it, every so many strokes some of them unite. Ugh. Or, say drawing a bunch of FH hair on a character's head. If you use an artistic, freehand, stroke (as you can, now that Moho offers a nice line to work with), you're bound to have to go back and clean up or separate a certain number of 'siamese twin' strokes. Basically, any quick drawing with close strokes is potentially at risk.
Most people don't traditionally see Moho as a drawing tool, it's been more a 'build and animate' thing. But now that drawing has improved so much and that the natural drawing per se approach is possible (hooray!), it might be worth putting this on the 'ironing out' list.
mattchee
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Re: Moho 12

Post by mattchee »

synthsin75 wrote:
Manu wrote:Oh no, that's not good. Why not finish the job you started? If you implement SVG import, do it properly. To read layers in as layers is such a no-brainer.
Can SVG layers be exported to individual SVGs fairly easily? If so, I could modify the SVG sequence importer I'm working on to not animate them as a sequence.
From Illustrator, not really. I think the best options would be:

- Export each layer one at a time (turning off the other layers) - tedious.

- Make a separate artboard for each layer, copy/paste-in-place each layer on to its own artboard, and EXPORT (not save as) SVG and select "Use Artboards". This would be the best option for saving out the multiple SVG layer files at once, but the setup would still be tedious.

- I think that's it? If there is a better way to go about it, I'd love to hear about it. The SVG import looks great, but not being able to have layered import is a bummer. I imagine it would be complicated (especially since everything in AI is kind of on its own layer within layers).
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Re: Moho 12

Post by Ronbo »

Reindeer wrote:As for the strokes connecting, I still can't make to work like in ASP11. It seems to behave differently. (since I'm FH drawing, I naturally have auto-stroke enabled).
Say I draw two simple single strokes, or lines, in such a way that the end of the second stroke meets or touches the end of the first one. Or simply if the second stroke begins from one of the extremities of the first one. With ASP11, if I have Auto-Weld and Merge Strokes off, nothing will happen, the two strokes will stay independent. In Moho, as far as I can see, even with those two off, the strokes will forcibly unite. I can actually see this as being potentially annoying whilst freehand drawing.
I agree. The freehand tool doesn't seem to retain individual, unconnected strokes any more if subsequent strokes begin too close to an end of a previous stroke. It seems like Auto-Weld cannot actually be turned off. I hope that this is a bug that can be fixed.
aongus
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Re: Moho 12

Post by aongus »

Ronbo wrote: I agree. The freehand tool doesn't seem to retain individual, unconnected strokes any more if subsequent strokes begin too close to an end of a previous stroke. It seems like Auto-Weld cannot actually be turned off. I hope that this is a bug that can be fixed.
Yes, I'm having the same experience, and I hope Smith Micro can issue a fix for this blight on an otherwise greatly enhanced feature
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