Disappointing expensive Moho 12 Update

[poach]

Hi Poach, it doesn't matter that people disagree with you, as you said many others did agree with you, there's no need to TRY and get banned for turning this into a flame war, it really distracts from your argument and isn't a good look.

The SM people do take this stuff seriously and probably are watching this thread , so make your words count.

I know it is not fun to be in your shoes and have your point of view belittled, just try and bear it for now , you are right , no one here knows you and you remain enigmatic by having less posts, so you don't need to take any of this personally.
For the record I sometimes DO get paid by Smith Micro for content packs and the like, but never my opinion , people here are free to say what they like - just try to rise above any immaturity that you might perceive from others, rather than exacerbating it eh? You will feel better for it.
BTW these 'fanboys' do not just agree with everything and will often make suggestions that go against the Smith Micro 'grain' a little ( not on this occasion, however) and they can have a fair influence by posing well considered alternative suggestions. You words might weild more weight if you worry less about what they say and more about what you say.
I hope that didn't sound like a lecture, take it easy OK?

Thanks <chucky> for the kind words! I hear you loud and clear . No, certainly, I am neither trying to get banned nor engage in flame wars. I just get incensed when I encounter internet bullies of any kind; especially in our industry where people wear their egos on their shoulders. You, my good friend, are a person of great honor and integrity. Thanks for looking out. Please keep up the cool head .

[exile]

So while I understand, I'm just not sure what you hope to achieve by ranting at anyone who suggests a modicum of patience.

Actually, I'd made up my mind not to bother about this thread anymore. But this is too much. Who's ranting? None of your answer was relevant to anything I said, especially in my last post. What's unreasonable about my request? - Name the price in the mail so I don't have to click on "buy" just to see what they're asking?

What was "vitriolic" in my posts? There's nothing novel about the tug of war between sellers and customers who both want an advantageous deal for themselves. I think I explained this politely and rationally.

But don't worry, I won't go on defending myself forever against your unfounded attacks. It's a waste of energy. I trust the judgement of any fair reader and will leave it at that.

[poach]

A vocal few? You see? That illustrates my point further. First you minimize and segregate a legitimate segment of the customer base as "a vocal few". Secondly you berate their complaints as "internet vitriol". Dude, what exactly do you gain from putting people down? I just don't get it. Each time you start making a statement it sounds great at the beginning, but then you still find a way to slip in a clever insult to people you consider beneath you. You seem very insecure.

No one is depriving anyone of any deal. Anyone that has $200 to shell out has done so (or will do so) and shouldn't waste their time on this thread. This thread is where disappointed customers are expressing themselves. Why are you so quick to jump to Smith Micro's defense? You sure seem to know the company's business model and marketing plans so well . You could at-least try and prove me wrong but your remarks continue to suggest you are a corporate shill with thin skin. And trust me, Smith Micro will certainly break under what you berate as "internet vitriol". Yes, the price will be lowered and I will be back here to remind you that customers do matter in this age of social media. Companies do not stop bad PR by sending mercenaries to stump down legitimate customer complaints, or suggest for customers to unsubscribe from emails. That produces the opposite result. Instead companies address customer complaints and concerns; promptly and genuinely. PR 101.

You need to remember where Moho came from and who it was meant for. I guarantee you it was not meant for folks with $400 or $200 upgrade price. That is why folks are complaining. Smith Micro needs to come back to the days when Mike still owned the rights. It was affordable and had a positive outlook. Moho was my underground secret weapon of choice back then and this forum was a warm, welcoming place where everyone was in it together. That was until the prima-donnas arrived with their post pissing contests.

By the way, aside from your initial post, where else in this thread did you push anything that resembles a "modicum of patience"? Instead you dominated the whole thread by putting down and minimizing people's comments. You single-handedly escalated this thread with your smart insult at <exile> and still arrogant to walk it back. Show some empathy and stop putting people down dude. Apologize to <exile> and move on. It doesn't cost a thing.

PS:
Check out the post from <chucky> above. That entirely made my day. That in my honest opinion is a person of honor and integrity. Go <chucky>!

[synthsin75]

So while I understand, I'm just not sure what you hope to achieve by ranting at anyone who suggests a modicum of patience.

Actually, I'd made up my mind not to bother about this thread anymore. But this is too much. Who's ranting?

Calling people "angry" or "aggressive" for making an innocent and factual suggestion if not exactly levelheaded.

I've asked what you expect to happen, but you don't seem interested in having a productive conversation.

[exile]

Calling people "angry" or "aggressive" for making an innocent and factual suggestion if not exactly levelheaded.

I've asked what you expect to happen, but you don't seem interested in having a productive conversation.

For the second and last time, demanding that I take myself off the mailing list is neither a factual statement nor innocent. By the way, there is no such thing as a "factual suggestion". Your comment was a slap in the face, pure and simple.

I expect there will be a tug of war between customers unable and/or unwilling to shell out $200 bucks instead of $100 last time around and Smith Micro. If they increase their profits, they won't offer any better deals to the hold-outs. If it turns out they misjudged the market, they might make a real effort to win back lost customers.

By expressing my wishes and offering my analysis, I'm already contributing to a productive conversation. After all, I'm still a potential customer for Smith-Micro at this point, but like many others a price-conscious one. Why can't you accept that without labeling me a ranter, not level-headed, and not interested in a productive conversation?

[synthsin75]

A vocal few? You see? That illustrates my point further. First you minimize and segregate a legitimate segment of the customer base as "a vocal few". Secondly you berate their complaints as "internet vitriol". Dude, what exactly do you gain from putting people down? I just don't get it. Each time you start making a statement it sounds great at the beginning, but then you still find a way to slip in a clever insult to people you consider beneath you. You seem very insecure.

No one is depriving anyone of any deal. Anyone that has $200 to shell out has done so (or will do so) and shouldn't waste their time on this thread. This thread is where disappointed customers are expressing themselves. Why are you so quick to jump to Smith Micro's defense? You sure seem to know the company's business model and marketing plans so well . You could at-least try and prove me wrong but your remarks continue to suggest you are a corporate shill with thin skin.

There are just better ways to accomplish things. Top among them is just letting your money speak for you. Not buying any product is the only real way to have your opinion heard, but even then, you cannot reasonably expect an immediate response. Like I said, if sales do not meet expectations, many companies adjust their price, or run sales, to compensate. This is general knowledge...I have no inside knowledge of SM. It is not my intent to minimize or segregate, but am just as entitled to my opinions and perceptions as you are your own. I'm not looking to put anyone down here, only to advise a little perspective and patience.

If Exile only wants them to send out emails for what he considers "good deals" then it certainly would deprive others of deals they may find completely satisfactory. I get email offers from SM all the time for software I'm not interested in, or at prices I'm unwilling to pay. And what do I do? I delete them and go about my day.

I don't make much money either, but I do prioritize what I want and make sure to save money so I can keep up to date with my favorite software. What is skipping eating out once or twice a week for the year? I'm sure at least my waistline appreciates that.

And trust me, Smith Micro will certainly break under what you berate as "internet vitriol". Yes, the price will be lowered and I will be back here to remind you that customers do matter in this age of social media. Companies do not stop bad PR by sending mercenaries to stump down legitimate customer complaints, or suggest for customers to unsubscribe from emails. That produces the opposite result. Instead companies address customer complaints and concerns; promptly and genuinely. PR 101.

See, that just confirms my suspicion that these sorts of posts are intended to extort SM into lowering the price. Have bad reviews on Steam ever led to a price reduction...even for the most publicized PR nightmares, like Arkham Knight? If so, I haven't heard of it. I assume the price will drop, either due to temporary sales or as this version gets older (closer to next version release), but I'd be amazed if they rewarded internet complaints with lower prices, since that obviously incentivizes more internet complaints. This is why I suggest a little patience.

You're absolutely right. Companies don't stop bad PR by sending mercenaries to stump down legitimate customer complaints. But I'm just another customer who gets tired of hearing it, especially when I know, from past experience, that SM has several annual sales. And if you've been a loyal customer as long as your membership on this forum would suggest, you should be just as aware of that past as I am.

You need to remember where Moho came from and who it was meant for. I guarantee you it was not meant for folks with $400 or $200 upgrade price. That is why folks are complaining. Smith Micro needs to come back to the days when Mike still owned the rights. It was affordable and had a positive outlook. Moho was my underground secret weapon of choice back then and this forum was a warm, welcoming place where everyone was in it together. That was until the prima-donnas arrived with their post pissing contests.

By the way, aside from your initial post, where else in this thread did you push anything that resembles a "modicum of patience"? Instead you dominated the whole thread by putting down and minimizing people's comments. You single-handedly escalated this thread with your smart insult at <exile> and still arrogant to walk it back. Show some empathy and stop putting people down dude. Apologize to <exile> and move on. It doesn't cost a thing.

I know where Moho cam from, when it was originally called Moho. But even when I found it, I had run down a lot of dead ends looking at software studios used. That is because even the most price-conscious consumer likes some validation that where they choose to spend their money is a good decision, whether that's cars, software, or anything else.

If you are truly concerned about this forum, where have you been? Why haven't you been here keeping it warm and welcoming? Instead, you seem to come back just to continue your "pissing contests". I've been here pretty regularly since I joined. I only seem to have dominated this thread because of all the hay people have made of a simple suggestion. I get that you'd rather I shut up, but it is hypocritical to demand the chance to express your opinion while trying to stifle others. Can you really not understand how someone not employed by SM may not agree with you?

I won't apologize over a simple suggestion blown way out of proportion. But I'm happy to be your lighting rod, if that makes you feel better.

[synthsin75]

Calling people "angry" or "aggressive" for making an innocent and factual suggestion if not exactly levelheaded.

I've asked what you expect to happen, but you don't seem interested in having a productive conversation.

For the second and last time, demanding that I take myself off the mailing list is neither a factual statement nor innocent. By the way, there is no such thing as a "factual suggestion". Your comment was a slap in the face, pure and simple.

Is this really the last time? Somehow I doubt it.

Who demanded that you take yourself off the email list? That's a huge exaggeration. I said, "Unsubscribe if you don't want offers sent to you." That's a suggestion and a choice you are free to make. Stay subscribed and get email offers, or unsubscribe and ensure you won't get offers you don't like. Those are the only options, but the choice between them is yours alone to make. You've made much more of it than was actually said.

That you've imagined it was a demand shows that you're too emotionally caught up in this.

If it turns out they misjudged the market, they might make a real effort to win back lost customers.

By expressing my wishes and offering my analysis, I'm already contributing to a productive conversation. After all, I'm still a potential customer for Smith-Micro at this point, but like many others a price-conscious one. Why can't you accept that without labeling me a ranter, not level-headed, and not interested in a productive conversation?

Actually, regardless of success, they are likely to continue to offer sale prices. No company just considers some sales goal as "good enough". They are always willing to make even more money than expected. I would be happy to consider you level-headed, but I just can't when you imagine I've demanded you unsubscribe from email offers. That is ridiculous, and if you were truly level-headed, you know it and could admit it.

Just because we disagree does not mean that I think less of you. I just don't understand why I'm not allowed to express my opinion while you demand you are.

[ruscular3d]

There quite a bit of info that I didn't know before that now makes me question about the stability of the company if its hanging by a thread, as one has suggest that if they agreed to offer the special as they previously advertise for that the company would suffer. That is not a good sign, you would want to buy from a company that would continue to support and update, and now hearing that its hanging on and in danger of being sold off as a loss of interest. Way to go to put that idea out there. Any company that needs loyal mercenary to squash out complaints to unsubscribe is one of the first sign of failing sales, and I have seen it happen several times.

It is true that this company have had many years of set precedent of sales, and not only that but advertise that it would be so, and then apologize much too late for anyone to budget out their expense to acquire the new price for the month, knowingly month prior but hope to keep it quiet and that no-one would notice. But then release the version with bugs in them and offer a set of already made content to compensate the software ability to create to tide us over for a working version. I did save up for the next version, but now I am spook by the lack of confidence of the company to go forward with version 13 and that this is the end of line if they don't overcome the bad PR from both the loyal fan that feels they have to defend it for the company and the botch false alarm sales. I hope they can fix this and don't feel that their customer are trying to manipulate them, but are concern about investing their time and money into this product. Version 11 was revolutionary in further expansion of the smartbone. Version 11 promotion was to me went very well and flawless. I don't know how or why introduction of MOHO12 went so sour, and even chance the name change hint desperation of reinventing themselves of failure. Seems like if your are going to do the name change then you would have make sure everything goes smoothly and professionally to appear confidence in the company future.

I have not heard from Víctor Paredes lately and to me he is the paramount asset of the company and the only one that step forward to try to make amend of the situation. The company is not obligated to make it right with me for the botch up, but as a consumer for many years, this is the first sign of a failing company that seems to be resonating from the loyal mercenary that would suggest people to leave the company. That's a sign of pride before a fall. I don't know who he is, but if he is touted as a long time user and contributor that is speaking for the company, then that is not a good sign.

[synthsin75]

No one said SM was hanging by a thread. Just that getting Moho for free as open source software was a bit of a pipe dream.

You'd think from these reactions that the apocalypse was well underway.

[chucky]

HI Peeps!
I can see what's happening here, it is all such a shemozzle.
Let's try and hose it down a little.

Here's a few of the basics from my pov.

Moho 12 was a great release ( maybe released a little early leaving a couple of bugs that'll be squished soon no doubt)
The upgrade price was a real shock to many.
Many complained and questioned the reasoning.
A small contingent got pretty defensive about the questions and complaints.
Now feathers are ruffled and some long bows have been drawn about the future of the software.

It is all very unfortunate and the upgrade price issue has marred what should have been a much more jubilant release-the new features are killers.
I wouldn't worry about Victor, he never get's involved with this stuff. he is only concerned with the way the software works and what you can do with it.
Let's not get carried away, hopefully this glitch will be corrected, I hope some soul searching goes on from all the involved parties.

I have noticed other apps getting overblown upgrade prices, I think it's a (hopefully short lived) micro-trend in software industry.
Did you see the Vegas 14 price - OMG ! Dream on!
Corel Painter charged massively for a long time and recently changed their policy probably so as not to lose more customers to Clip Studio.
I personally know nothing about any of this than what I see here and what I could guess would happen.
Execs who are doing this 'upgrade thing' will probably need to see the charts for the quarter before they make a decision.

I'm sure it's not the end of the world, just a delay for many to upgrade?

[ruscular3d]

Who are you and what capacity do you represent the company? If you aren't a representative of the company, than you just threw more oil into the fire of doubt!
If Victor is no longer involve with this, than why did he leave?

[exile]

I was happily out of this thread and now find myself rubbing my eyes. How could a spontaneous complaint about a promotional e-mail snowball into this?

When Chucky says he only knows what he sees here, that means he is a customer and user like the rest of us. I don't accuse anyone here of being a company mercenary, if any contributor was on the payroll of SM, I expect they would have the decency to say so. If some are beta testers (my guess), I doubt if they are getting rich by defending SM in this forum. I don't accuse SM of paying anybody to throttle criticism. It wouldn't be a good strategy to personally attack users who express disappointment at the upgrade policy - too much partisanship can do more harm than good, as this thread illustrates.

My off-the-cuff comment about AS going open source was not a good idea, I didn't think anybody would take it at face value. Correct me if I'm wrong, Wes, but I don't think your reply - that AS/Moho could end up in the hands of a company that wouldn't develop it like SM has - was based on any inside information. Since most people are either silently upgrading or silently not upgrading, the sales figures are anybody's guess except for company insiders.

In case anyone is interested, I'm not personally unhappy about not being able to upgrade at this point. By exploring different software alternatives - which I won't go into here - I've discovered that whatever software I use, there is really no substitute for learning basics. The digital age makes a lot of "cheating" - which is all legitimate - possible, but at some point you will at least need usable rough sketches which you can improve on using computer tools. So I'm using this intermission to force myself to work more from sketches and less by relying on bones and actions. Whichever software I use, this is something I should have been doing from the beginning - it might explain why so many of us get stuck in the experimental phase and have a hard time finishing projects. This is a purely personal comment which might be helpful to others who like me have average talent (at best).

Chucky is right, it's time to cool off. The issues, doubts and hopes are on the table, it's SM's move. Whatever happens, we can go on animating. If we don't, it's not the fault of a software company.

[chucky]

ruscular ,
I don't represent the company in any capacity, I do make content here and there like the files in the library marked CK and brushes also marked CK, but I don't 'work' for SM , I am an independent freelancer from Australia.
I'm also beta test ( I hope that's OK to reveal) ( but I assure you I try to maintain a view that embodies the perspective of a wide range of other users ( not the company), that's the whole purpose right? ) .

I just think people are getting too excited and should just take some time to think this through ( on both sides of the debate) without flaming up.
Looks like even that suggestion can be inflammatory... sorry
What doubt?
Victor leaving... where does that come from?

Hey ruscular, do you represent the company?
Just kidding,
I appreciate your opinion , everyone's is valid to some degree, right?
This forum is great for this stuff to discussed as well as how the software works, it's benefits everyone ( unless the discussions go off road)

Weeeeeeee

OH and Exile, that was very well said.
Sensible and mature.... weeeeeeeeee!

[Greenlaw]

I have noticed other apps getting overblown upgrade prices, I think it's a (hopefully short lived) micro-trend in software industry.
Did you see the Vegas 14 price - OMG ! Dream on!

I think it's $249 to upgrade from Vegas 13 Pro, which I don't think is that unreasonable. I mean it has been two and a half years since 13 came out and there are significant improvements (native ProRes support for example.) What used to annoy me about Sony's management of Vegas was that, even if their upgrades were not expensive they did get in the habit of releasing updates way too frequently without a lot of improvements to show. Well, until 13 came out I guess--then they seemed to just stop developing the program at all. Under Magix, Vegas 14 sounds like a huge upgrade and I'm kinda looking forward to it.

Sorry, didn't mean to throw this topic off too much. TBH, I haven't actually decided to upgrade to Vegas 14 yet and I'm even toying with the idea of going back to Premiere since I'm already paying for it as part of Cloud anyway. I really do prefer using Vegas so I'm feeling torn by this. I think if the Vegas upgrade cost was any higher, I'd probably just stick with 13 until it broke and then return to Premiere.

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled discussion...

[synthsin75]

I was happily out of this thread and now find myself rubbing my eyes. How could a spontaneous complaint about a promotional e-mail snowball into this?

When Chucky says he only knows what he sees here, that means he is a customer and user like the rest of us. I don't accuse anyone here of being a company mercenary, if any contributor was on the payroll of SM, I expect they would have the decency to say so. If some are beta testers (my guess), I doubt if they are getting rich by defending SM in this forum. I don't accuse SM of paying anybody to throttle criticism. It wouldn't be a good strategy to personally attack users who express disappointment at the upgrade policy - too much partisanship can do more harm than good, as this thread illustrates.

My off-the-cuff comment about AS going open source was not a good idea, I didn't think anybody would take it at face value. Correct me if I'm wrong, Wes, but I don't think your reply - that AS/Moho could end up in the hands of a company that wouldn't develop it like SM has - was based on any inside information. Since most people are either silently upgrading or silently not upgrading, the sales figures are anybody's guess except for company insiders.

In case anyone is interested, I'm not personally unhappy about not being able to upgrade at this point. By exploring different software alternatives - which I won't go into here - I've discovered that whatever software I use, there is really no substitute for learning basics. The digital age makes a lot of "cheating" - which is all legitimate - possible, but at some point you will at least need usable rough sketches which you can improve on using computer tools. So I'm using this intermission to force myself to work more from sketches and less by relying on bones and actions. Whichever software I use, this is something I should have been doing from the beginning - it might explain why so many of us get stuck in the experimental phase and have a hard time finishing projects. This is a purely personal comment which might be helpful to others who like me have average talent (at best).

Chucky is right, it's time to cool off. The issues, doubts and hopes are on the table, it's SM's move. Whatever happens, we can go on animating. If we don't, it's not the fault of a software company.

I agree with Chucky. This is a very sensible post, Exile. I never meant for you, or anyone else, to feel personally attacked (except insofar as they were called out for their own unprovoked attacks). Yeah, beta testers are not making money, and even freelancers who sell work to SM occasionally are not getting rich by any stretch of the imagination. People who report bugs, whether beta tester or not, are just the fans of the software who some here have called shills and mercenaries. Anyone who has a vested interest in the development of Moho (because they like it and maybe use it professionally) hates to hear the constant bitterness about price, especially when it overshadows a revolutionary release like Moho 12. That's really the only motive on this side of the issue.

Yeah, I have no inside information. Just my opinions.

In the long run, I really don't think these complaints will harm SM. Moho continues to develop towards addressing the needs of professionals while maintaining the aspects that have always drawn hobbyists to it. There's bound to be some growing pains as it seeks more professional adoption, but ultimately knowledge of greater studio and professional adoption will drive even hobbyist/amateur sales.

People always have a choice. Like with new video games, you can pay more for a new release, or be patient for the price to drop. You can also upgrade early and help fund development, or wait for a sale. Everyone must balance their own priorities, including any company. Just because those priorities may have changed does not mean anyone is being taken advantage of...only that they must reevaluate their only priorities in response.

If your time is worth more than your money, you probably have already upgraded...and if you money is worth more than your time, you can wait for a sale.