Disappointing expensive Moho 12 Update

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Psmith
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Re: Disappointing expensive Moho 12 Update

Post by Psmith »

Steve:

I like your comment about what we need more of, as animators - more practice drawing - rough sketching - less reliance on "cheats" (although I will use them at every available opportunity - for time's sake, if nothing else). Time is both our friend and our enemy - being so finite.

I love the word, "Shemozzle". Kafuffle is also nice.

You know that I have been diligently comparing several animation software offerings - hoping to find one, out of these, that offers the most for the least (time and frustration and money - in that order).

Please follow me to that other thread about Blender's Grease Pencil Suite:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=28855&p=170187#p170187


Greg Smith
ruscular3d
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Re: Disappointing expensive Moho 12 Update

Post by ruscular3d »

I don't remember who, but self declare *know it all* claim that Victor wouldn't involve himself here, after Victor was the one that apologize for the company decision to revoke the special. Didn't explain why he is now avoiding this discussion. Was he responsible for the mix-up and delay fixing it? What done is done, but speaking for others when you have no idea what they have been thinking is wrong. I advise to stay clear of guessing for another person thoughts and action until you can back it up. It'll just make matters worse than it is. Also uninviting others to leave the company that you don't own, and also being self defensive of money earn by someone else. I have no problem with prophesying the experience of the program that you enjoy. I think you should let the company spokeperson handle the complaint, sales projection, and banning. That is why most company have department for these thing so that consumer don't muck it up with heresay. That said the worse thing you can do in handling complaint is marginalizing their complaint as unreasonable.

That said, my attention was to bring forth that repeating a botch special is just twisting the knife into the consumer chest for not listening to the grievance that they advertise for the special and instead did a apologetic bundle special to make up for it, and then repeat it again. Meanwhile a lull of silence on fixing the bugs. I didn't ask for a comparison of another company conduct or performance, didn't ask for personal change or feeling about the special, didn't ask if I should stay with the company or go elsewhere. Didn't ask for the company health indicator. All I am asking is to be heard just like all the other legitimate complaint for the software that we do love. That to honor their agreement of the sale, and if they can't inform us the new changes as soon as possible for budgeting time for the new price, and more so if there is to be an increase.
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exile
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Re: Disappointing expensive Moho 12 Update

Post by exile »

:?:
Psmith wrote:Steve:

I like your comment about what we need more of, as animators - more practice drawing - rough sketching - less reliance on "cheats" (although I will use them at every available opportunity - for time's sake, if nothing else). Time is both our friend and our enemy - being so finite.

I love the word, "Shemozzle". Kafuffle is also nice.

You know that I have been diligently comparing several animation software offerings - hoping to find one, out of these, that offers the most for the least (time and frustration and money - in that order).

Please follow me to that other thread about Blender's Grease Pencil Suite:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=28855&p=170187#p170187


Greg Smith
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Greenlaw
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Re: Disappointing expensive Moho 12 Update

Post by Greenlaw »

BTW, my previous post about Magix and Adobe shouldn't be taken as an indirect comment on Smith-Micro or the current Moho 12 upgrade offer. But here's what I do think about the Moho 12 upgrade in general:

I've been using Moho 12 for a couple of months now, for personal projects and in professional productions, and I think it's a huge upgrade compared to previous upgrades. I'd go as far to say this version is the most significant release to date. And it's not just for the obvious features but also because the developers have completely re-engineered the core of the program in a way that allows animators to manage and animate larger amounts of data (layers, artwork and key frames) much more efficiently. This new architecture means we can now create more ambitious animations quicker and more easily, and it also means the developers will be able to advance Moho in ways that was impossible before. Believe me, a ton of extra thought and work went into developing this release and, quite frankly, Moho 12 works remarkably well for a 'point-oh' release that's gone through such a major overhaul. Yes, we're seeing a few bugs but nothing that makes me regret going forward with 12. And in response to these bug reports, Victor and others have already stated that these issues are being addressed in a 12.1 update just around the corner.

I think if a user isn't quite ready to upgrade to 12, for whatever reason, there's nothing wrong with staying with 11 until he's able to upgrade. At my workplace, we did not immediately switch up to 12 for production work when it came out because 11 was working fine for us plus we needed to be sure 12 wasn't going to create critical problems that we couldn't roll back from. Fortunately, it didn't take long to determine that the benefits of 12 outweighed our reasons to stick with 11 and we made our decision.

I guess this is all the more reason SM needs to get a 12 Pro trial out so people can decide if upgrading is for them, and if they should do it now or wait till later. And I'm sure SM has been eager to do just that. I don't personally know why the Pro trial version was delayed but my guess is that, since there has been a negative response in these forums about the few bugs in 12.0, and they may have felt it would be wiser to hold-off releasing the trial version of Pro until 12.1 is ready.

Anyway, I don't want to get too speculative about how SM makes their marketing decisions. The current offer is what it is, and the reasons for it have been explained by Victor in another thread. Historically, SM does have product sales from time to time so they may announce a better offer in the future.

And before anybody starts spreading rumors about me, no I don't work for SM. But I am an enthusiastic Moho 12 user (yes, a fan boy if you will.) :)
Last edited by Greenlaw on Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
chucky
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Re: Disappointing expensive Moho 12 Update

Post by chucky »

I think it's $249 to upgrade from Vegas 13 Pro, which I don't think is that unreasonable. I mean it has been two and a half years since 13 came out and there are significant improvements (native ProRes support for example.)
Obviously there are differences in scale here, That's 300 AUD or something like that especially on top of our animation, storyboarding and illustration software, hardware upgrades etc. etc., Many people just don't earn enough ( despite diligently working long hard hours in a highly trained capacity) to be forking that kind of money out. Income to expense ratio is all out of whack here and the social divide is growing all the time.
Obviously there's a division here between economic strata- on one side these updates are chicken feed, on the other, they unfeasibly expensive.

So the poorer folk don't upgrade and berated for it too , meanwhile the company may or may not make a similar amount of profit ( they just become more exclusive) is that's what's going on?

That's a rhetorical question btw....so please don't correct me eh. :mrgreen:

Synth said
Anyone who has a vested interest in the development of Moho (because they like it and maybe use it professionally) hates to hear the constant bitterness about price, especially when it overshadows a revolutionary release like Moho 12. That's really the only motive on this side of the issue.
See the reasoning here is well meant, even if some disagree.

ruscular said
I don't remember who, but self declare *know it all* claim that Victor wouldn't involve himself here, after Victor was the one that apologize for the company decision to revoke the special. Didn't explain why he is now avoiding this discussion. Was he responsible for the mix-up and delay fixing it?
Wow... OK , you seems to got a little mixed up here.
I have OBVSERVED that Victor tends not to get involved in discussions about politics or pricing, this is not a rule, just an observation. He may have on rare occasion mentioned it which doesn't make that any less true. I've have only pleaded for maturity here and have been clear about the limits of my understanding.
Methinks you enjoy the 'brouhaha?' Kerfuffle was better :D
ruscular3d
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Re: Disappointing expensive Moho 12 Update

Post by ruscular3d »

You think I enjoy the brouhaha? and yet I just suggest that you don't speak for the company or their employee if you want to avoid the misrepresenting others. But I am going to ask you that you do not have my permission to represent me or tell what I enjoy without my say so. So that we are clear on that! So whatever you think of me, please kindly keep it to yourself. I only speak for myself, and can not assume what you are thinking for I am not you and respect that.
chucky
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Re: Disappointing expensive Moho 12 Update

Post by chucky »

ruscular3d wrote:You think I enjoy the brouhaha? and yet I just suggest that you don't speak for the company or their employee if you want to avoid the misrepresenting others. But I am going to ask you that you do not have my permission to represent me or tell what I enjoy without my say so. So that we are clear on that! So whatever you think of me, please kindly keep it to yourself. I only speak for myself, and can not assume what you are thinking for I am not you and respect that.
Weeeeeeeee! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
How did this happen?
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Víctor Paredes
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Re: Disappointing expensive Moho 12 Update

Post by Víctor Paredes »

Hi, I finally was able to read the last part of this thread. I will try to clarify not all, but some of the points:

- Moho is in good shape and the version 12 launch was a big success. Personally, I'm very happy about this point. The team and myself put a lot of love and very hard on Moho 12, trying to offer a great version, totally designed for animators.
- I know a price increase is not always welcomed, but several factors were considered to make that decision.
In order to balance that, we added as many useful features and improvements as possible.
- Currently, there are no sales planned, but sincerely I can't say there won't be any. The emails, although they don't always show interesting offers for everyone and many times go directly to the trash folder, is probably the best way to get that information on time.
- The name change wasn't a "desperate move". Fahim and I pushed for that change after a lot of research and meetings . One of our goals was to introduce the software to professional users who didn't know it or that simply didn't take it seriously because of the previous name.
In marketing terms, it would have been less risky to simply keep the Anime Studio name, but we felt this version was solid enough to take the risk.
- We couldn't cover everything for 12.0 release and there are bugs we didn't expect or didn't discover before. That is normal on any software, but I can tell you Moho 12 beta testing period was longer than usual and many beta testers (included many from this forum) worked hard to finally got a very stable version 12.0.
I'm not saying it's perfect (in that case, we wouldn't need a 12.1 release), but it's totally enjoyable (and useful).
- There's already a demo for Debut version and we are planning to introduce a demo for Pro in 12.1.
- I'm still working at Smith Micro and currently we are working hard on 12.1. It's fun to see how rumors can be created from nothing (more if you consider I post regularly here and the last time I did it was two days ago).

That's all the update I can do for now.
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Greenlaw
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Re: Disappointing expensive Moho 12 Update

Post by Greenlaw »

chucky wrote:Obviously there are differences in scale here...on one side these updates are chicken feed, on the other, they unfeasibly expensive.
I can understand that.

However, the point I was making is that back when Sony was still releasing upgrades for Vegas Pro, they charged $150 - $199...that's obviously less than $249 but then these upgrades were coming out at an annual frequency with minimal improvements, and that was getting expensive. The new Vegas Pro 14 upgrade may be $249 but it's been 2 1/2 years since the last one and it appears to be a major upgrade from 13. By that logic, this upgrade may actually be 'cheaper' and a better value. Of course, this depends on how frequently Magix releases their paid upgrades.

Well see. TBH, I'm not fully convinced I will upgrade at that price. My home computer is a dinosaur that could die any day now, so I really should be saving up for a new one. :P
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Re: Disappointing expensive Moho 12 Update

Post by chucky »

Yay Victor!

Hey Dennis :)
I know this is off topic being about a different program so apologies to everyone for that.
Did you make the Vegas upgrade yet?
If so I have a question on one of the new features .
SO in 13 they had groups and sync link , neither work as well as they should.
IS there a difference in 13, I can find no specifics about that?
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Greenlaw
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Re: Disappointing expensive Moho 12 Update

Post by Greenlaw »

Nah, haven't upgraded yet. I'm still waiting for the email from Magix about upgrading. Supposedly they're still sending the offers out to current 13 users.

It's a little confusing because the 'special' offer that's apparently being sent out doesn't sound any different from their regular upgrade price, but the 'special' is for a limited time only. :?

I'm waiting to get some clarification about that, hoping that the actual offer is a lower price than the regularly advertised upgrade. I would like to upgrade and probably will if the offer is actually a lower price, otherwise I'm in no hurry to. All my current personal projects are in 13 and I'm not planning to start any new projects for several months
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Re: Disappointing expensive Moho 12 Update

Post by chucky »

Greenlaw wrote:Nah, haven't upgraded yet. I'm still waiting for the email from Magix about upgrading. Supposedly they're still sending the offers out to current 13 users.

It's a little confusing because the 'special' offer that's apparently being sent out doesn't sound any different from their regular upgrade price, but the 'special' is for a limited time only. :?

I'm waiting to get some clarification about that, hoping that the actual offer is a lower price than the regularly advertised upgrade. I would like to upgrade and probably will if the offer is actually a lower price, otherwise I'm in no hurry to. All my current personal projects are in 13 and I'm not planning to start any new projects for several months
Yeah I'm on 13 too, I got the email and it was $199 US..... I'll be holding off.
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Greenlaw
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Re: Disappointing expensive Moho 12 Update

Post by Greenlaw »

Oh...at least that's a better offer than what's on the website. Hmm...hope I get the email. Maybe I better ask.
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Re: Disappointing expensive Moho 12 Update

Post by synthsin75 »

chucky wrote:Yeah I'm on 13 too, I got the email and it was $199 US..... I'll be holding off.
Wow, that's the same price to upgrade to Moho 12. I can justify it for Moho, because it's crucial to my character animation needs. I don't think I could justify that price for a video editor though.
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Re: Disappointing expensive Moho 12 Update

Post by Greenlaw »

chucky wrote:Yeah I'm on 13 too, I got the email and it was $199 US..... I'll be holding off.
Update: I found the email offer in my spam folder. The $199 price is for just the Vegas Pro editor; if you want to upgrade the full Pro package with DVD Architect and the Mercalli stabilization plugins, it's $249. If you want it with all the tracking and 3D tools, its $799 to upgrade. So the 'sale' really isn't a sale as far as I could tell. I still don't understand the time limit.

Anyway, if a user just wants the basic video editor, they also still offer the entry level Vegas Move Studio for $50 (that's full price, no an upgrade.) It's still a very capable editor if you don't need all the 'Pro' features.

I went for the $249 package since that's what I have now for 13, although TBH, my days of authoring DVD/Blueray discs may be behind me--clients and employers generally prefer to view reels and footage online these days. Since I did use DVD Architect last year for a project for my daughter's school, I figure it might be worth the extra $50 to stay current there. I took a quick look at the new DVD Architect after installation. it's a version higher but it doesn't seem that different to me. Maybe there's something new there but I haven't looked closely at it yet though since disc authoring isn't a top priority for me right now.

I did edit an animated short in Vegas Pro 14 today for my 9-year old daughter. She used an FBF program called Animation Desk to create all her scenes and she asked me to help her put it together and record audio. It probably isn't the best project to test Vegas Pro 14 with though since it didn't challenge any of the new features. I got it done very quickly and, TBH, I don't think I did anything differently than I would have using 13. At the moment, I haven't done anything with the program yet that make me recommend the upgrade.

FWIW, I'm really curious about the program's ability to scale up and edit footage at 4k--maybe I can test that using 'Hello Frankenstein', which was shot in SD many years ago. Also, Vegas can now time speed footage to 40x in realtime--this should make creating timelapse drawing videos a lot easier than in past releases that required pre-rendering footage multiple times to reach anywhere near this speed. I'm also eager to test the new Mercalli plugins--they're supposed to be super fast and with very high quality results. The demo videos are pretty amazing anyway. Sections of our Brudders music video have live action footage so I may be trying this feature out this soon. Normally, I'd do this sort of thing in Fusion or AE but if Vegas Pro 14 can handle this automatically and in realtime, I'm all for getting tedious tasks done faster with less fuss.

I didn't consider the bigger Suite package with the extra 'high-end' plugins for tracking, mostly because of price but also because I already have this capability in SynthEyes, and to a decent degree with After Effects and Fusion. And, I don't know, I do far less live action vfx work these days, I probably don't need to keep up with all this stuff anymore.
chucky wrote:SO in 13 they had groups and sync link , neither work as well as they should.
IS there a difference in 13, I can find no specifics about that?
You mean layer groups right? Actually I have used that for several projects and I thought the feature worked as well as I expected. What problems did you run into with it?

I never tried Sync Link. Is that the editorial review system that worked with iPad and smartphones? When I have time, I can check it out.

Edit: Chucky just told me Sync Link was for syncing a bunch of audio tracks. I'm not sure I've used exactly that feature for editing audio this way. Anyway, I think we're taking this discussion off-line since it's getting way OT now.
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