Best approach for flexible non-overcomplicated body-rigs

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mkz
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Best approach for flexible non-overcomplicated body-rigs

Post by mkz »

Hey guys. I just purchased MOHO 12 and so far Im loving it. This looks like a very solid little community here.

Im just wondering what is the best method of setting up a full body based rig with rotations and different angles, and what pitfalls I should watch out for. The rigging system is fantastic and very intuitive coming from 3d.

I was watching the puffin rock example: https://youtu.be/EaA3M4DO6ZQ?t=1072 and noticed they used a different rig and setup for each rotation of the character. Is it possible to automate a switch between each rotation "pose" and rig so that it interpolates smoothly when animated? Would this be achieved by smart bone based layer switching?

Iv also seen this robin hood example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX_VT4_VVB8
Is this using a rig and body switching approach like puffin rock, or a smart bone rotation and vector modification approach like you would do with a head?

I can see switching the characters body could possibly allow for more nuance and detail as opposed to manually re-tooling existing vectors to appear like as if their orientation has changed.

If you guys can chime in with your experiences and advice that would be greatly appreciated. I can imagine there is probably no ONE size
fits all scenario. But I would greatly appreciate being steered into a direction with the most amount of flexibility without over-complicating the setup.

Iv seen some absolutely fantastic work done by the forum members here and hope to hear from you guys if you've got the time.
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synthsin75
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Re: Best approach for flexible non-overcomplicated body-rigs

Post by synthsin75 »

Smart bones do not smoothly interpolate switch layers, so smoothly interpolated turns would either need to be point motion (and/or smart mesh for advanced users) controlled by smart bones or just manually inserted switch actions. That Robin Hood example is smart bone controlled point motion. He doesn't show it, but that red circle omnidirectional control for the head is a fairly complicated rig. So without over-complication, you may want to stick to left/right turns...using the head bone for nods, with maybe some specific smart bones for head-on nods.
chucky
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Re: Best approach for flexible non-overcomplicated body-rigs

Post by chucky »

Welcome to the forum.
The quest for the perfect rig has been ongoing for as long as Moho has been around.
I think a combo of all the technology will get closest.
The trick to keep it uncomplicated is the hardest , when flexibility is paramount.

Especially if you want to maintain the possibility to rework the character into another character.

I seem to end up with more face bones than I would like unless it is a one off rig, which goes against the logic of faster rigging.

I would love to have a video conference with some of the masters of Moho to see if a standard approach that the developers would be interested in subscribing to.
mkz
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Re: Best approach for flexible non-overcomplicated body-rigs

Post by mkz »

Chucky, Synthsin75: Thanks for the replies fellas, I'v setup some perspective/orientation changes via smartbones like that robinhood head example. The controller itself looks simple enough to recreate via a tutorial I found on youtube but it does add a fair bit of rig complexity.

Yeah it would be great if the masters could agree on some common rigging scenarios and put them into one comprehensive document for new-comers. You tube is pretty great for this as-well tho. Troys tutorials are amazing and thorough.

Another question, Im using smart-bones extensively on limbs to correct the mesh. EG: the end of the legs at the torso protrude in extreme poses. Is this technique compatible with using smart bones to change perspective/orientation, or will the corrective smart bones conflict with the 'turn" based smart bones. Is there a better way?

Also do you guys recommend splitting limbs into upper and lower parts or keeping them as one mesh?
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synthsin75
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Re: Best approach for flexible non-overcomplicated body-rigs

Post by synthsin75 »

mkz wrote:Another question, Im using smart-bones extensively on limbs to correct the mesh. EG: the end of the legs at the torso protrude in extreme poses. Is this technique compatible with using smart bones to change perspective/orientation, or will the corrective smart bones conflict with the 'turn" based smart bones. Is there a better way?

Also do you guys recommend splitting limbs into upper and lower parts or keeping them as one mesh?
In my experience, SB joint corrections do tend to preclude SB turns. To help protrusions, design the end of the limb as a circle, centered on the bone pivot.

Personally, I do use separate upper and lower limbs, but depending on your design, you may need a single shape for a continuous pattern. In that case, there are some rigging options that avoid SB joint corrections.
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hayasidist
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Re: Best approach for flexible non-overcomplicated body-rigs

Post by hayasidist »

speaking personally, I tend to avoid "one rig for all poses / actions" and have one rig per 'pose' -- maybe a dozen for one character - reusing artwork / bones etc as appropriate. Simple example: the character sitting cross-legged on the floor and the character walking will have 2 separate rigs that reuse most / all the upper body art, but have different lower body art/rig. The key here is the storyboard - if you don't **need** to show the transitions between those poses then don't..
chucky
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Re: Best approach for flexible non-overcomplicated body-rigs

Post by chucky »

I do agree that one rig will rarely cover all scenarios ( good point) , in fact jumping in and out of FBF is often necessary, especially for extreme action.
I do think that a standard approach to eyelevel rigs is the best idea if you plan to be see it a lot.
One rig to rule them all is dreaming, but one for the bread and butter, that's just sensible and efficient.

It would be nice if it was easy to adapt rigs for special poses than it currently is , then more specialty rigs would be de rigueur.

I personally hate having to reinvent wheels as much as I have to with Moho and would like to see ( as in 3d) a rig that would be very flexible and accepting of new art without extensive rebinding and vector tweaking.

One way would be to be able to move vectors on frame zero 'with' the bone.
Another would be deep nested 'modular' rigging.
This however needs to be embraced and programmed by development before we can do either.

I split limbs often ( to be on the safe side).
It's nice to have simplicity but it sux to get caught out, unprepared if you board a scene and can't perform it.
In fat I keep two copies of the arms ( one in front one behind the body).
Experience has lead me to this and it has helped me out of a lot of jams.

My standard empty ( human) bone rig even has desk, chair and prop bones and layers that I keep hidden and/ or out of the way, when not in use.
This is also for convenience, if you character suddenly has to sit, they will have to put elbows on the desk, I don't have the patience to start messing around with the rig for something so mundane, so I keep it ready with a desk layer bound to it above the torso and behind the front arms.
mkz
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Re: Best approach for flexible non-overcomplicated body-rigs

Post by mkz »

Thank you so much guys for your experience and insight!! its appreciated. Ahh the circle based joint does help immensely. Ill try and stick with separating the limbs aswell.

I really like the approach of a separate rig per pose as it lends itself to having the best consistency. Some poses dont have to be complicated, while some others will require a bit more thought. So you put the detail where you need it.

So would I switch the rig via a switch layer?

Could I for a more natural looking switch, automate in the same action a Start rig->FBF->New Rig? Preferably where the fbf layer is positioned and scaled properly based on data from another layer driving it.

Also, does FBF seem buggy for anyone? Like it seems as if when I try to extend a frame to play over more than one frame in the timeline it sometimes wont let me. I might be missing something here but its current behavior seems very unintuitive.
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jahnocli
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Re: Best approach for flexible non-overcomplicated body-rigs

Post by jahnocli »

mkz wrote:...So would I switch the rig via a switch layer?
You could take a look at this: https://www.animestudiotutor.com/bones/ ... technique/
You can't have everything. Where would you put it?
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hayasidist
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Re: Best approach for flexible non-overcomplicated body-rigs

Post by hayasidist »

mkz wrote: I really like the approach of a separate rig per pose as it lends itself to having the best consistency. Some poses dont have to be complicated, while some others will require a bit more thought. So you put the detail where you need it.

So would I switch the rig via a switch layer?
Yes - e.g. as per John's post or by having the rigs in a switch layer -- or -- what I usually do is to have many .moho files - one per "shot" -- so, say, for example I have a "typical 3-camera set up" for a dialogue where A is standing and speaking to B who is initially seated but who stands during the exchange...

file 1: A standing and B seated as a 2 shot...
file 2: A alone doing their lines to camera.
file 3: B alone seated doing their lines to a "high" camera (i.e. from A's eye level).
file 4: B starting to move from seated (uses the sitting rig)
file 5: A reacts to B's movement
file 6: B completing the move to standing (uses the standing rig)
file 7: A and B standing as a 2 shot...
file 8: B alone standing doing their lines to an eye-level camera.

and the rest is down to compositing.

mkz wrote: Could I for a more natural looking switch, automate in the same action a Start rig->FBF->New Rig? Preferably where the fbf layer is positioned and scaled properly based on data from another layer driving it.
That pose to pose transition by FBF was why I wrote my bake frame script... viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28275&p=160048 . In this example I'd bake the frame that is at the end of file 4 and use FBF to transition to the frame at the start of file 6. Moho isn't that good at dragging whole chunks of timeline around, so I'd tend to do that FBF sequence in a separate file.

mkz wrote: Also, does FBF seem buggy for anyone? Like it seems as if when I try to extend a frame to play over more than one frame in the timeline it sometimes wont let me. I might be missing something here but its current behavior seems very unintuitive.
This has been noted a few times -- hopefully there will be improvements in a future release.
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