Dealing with different frame rates?

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Welsh Jester
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Dealing with different frame rates?

Post by Welsh Jester »

Probably an obvious one but i assume that any imported video into Moho needs to be the same frame rate as the animation, to avoid stutter etc after rendering?

But what if the video you want to import is in a different frame rate? Not sure how people on YouTube seem to combine videos that are likely different frame rates and have it smooth. Like the ones that have footage taken from all kinds of things including their own recorded video.
chucky
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Re: Dealing with different frame rates?

Post by chucky »

Convert them in a video editing software, to matching frame rates?
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slowtiger
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Re: Dealing with different frame rates?

Post by slowtiger »

Video editors have the ability to time-stretch material to any frame rate. Different FPS material will be corrected to run at correct speed automatically.

In Moho you can set the frame rate of imported footage to any value. Usually this is done to match the project FPS, I haven't used it for the purpose you need. Just experiment a bit and tell us about the results.
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Welsh Jester
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Re: Dealing with different frame rates?

Post by Welsh Jester »

In Moho adjusting the frame rate also alters the speed of the video, but does everyone here make sure that their imported video = the same frame rate as the animation?

In video editors if you use footage that has less fps than the project then you get interpolated frames added, if you put footage which has more fps than the project you get dropped frames.. both = stutter.

https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/3/1003852 Like if you mix 24fps and 30fps, they say here there's no way around it?

My editing program is Vegas.
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Greenlaw
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Re: Dealing with different frame rates?

Post by Greenlaw »

What's your final output frame rate going to be?

If it's 30, you should probably just animate in Moho at 30 fps to make sure all the drawings match from frame-to-frame.

If the situation is that your footage is 30 fps and you want to conform that to 24 fps in your final output then, yeah, you should probably convert the footage to 24 fps and import that to Moho.

Since you use Vegas, you might try the 'Smart Resample' mode. I usually have this off because it can cause 'ghosting' in some frames but I found a tip for dealing with this issue here (note: I haven't tested this myself yet): http://eugenia.queru.com/2009/08/04/the ... 0p-to-24p/

IMO, unless the footage has interlacing, converting from 30 to 24 fps this way shouldn't look too bad.

Another option is to use a tool that uses optical flow tech to create new frames or missing frames during re-timing. Twixtor is a good tool for this but it does cost money, and you need to run it in a host application (like Vegas, Fusion, or AE.) If you have After Effects, the native Timewarp plugin performs a similar job as Twixtor (with fewer features than Twixtor and slightly different result.) Fusion has its native version of optical flow tools but they're only found in the paid version, not the free version.

Regardless of how you output the converted footage, you should output as image sequences to insure frame accuracy during compositing. Movie files are not good for this unless you're using a codec that supports 'whole' frames, like PNG or Motion JPEG. Moho may run more smoothly with image sequences but you should experiment to see what works best on your gear.

I typically use a crappy but fast streaming JPG sequence as reference in Moho, and then render the 2D animation without the reference footage (Layer Comps and Moho Exporter was built for this.) Then I composite the 2D animation to the final footage in a compositing program where I have more options for better integrating the Moho footage.

Hope this helps.
Welsh Jester
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Re: Dealing with different frame rates?

Post by Welsh Jester »

Greenlaw wrote:If the situation is that your footage is 30 fps and you want to conform that to 24 fps in your final output then, yeah, you should probably convert the footage to 24 fps and import that to Moho.

Since you use Vegas, you might try the 'Smart Resample' mode. I usually have this off because it can cause 'ghosting' in some frames but I found a tip for dealing with this issue here (note: I haven't tested this myself yet): http://eugenia.queru.com/2009/08/04/the ... 0p-to-24p/
Yeah it produces ghosting so it's better with resample off. That method you mention is only if you don't want to have that video's audio included.

So it looks like either try one of those plugins that does better interpolation, or just throw 24fps onto a 30/60fps timeline with resample disabled. But i still see videos on YouTube that have their own footage in 30/60 and also mixed with some clips from films which are obviously 24fps mostly, and from what I've seen before they look fine, and they must either be dropping frames or interpolating them then :?:

Same would apply if i want to put some 24fps footage into Moho, unless the Moho project would also be 24fps.. if it's 30 then the video would need to be converted to 30 before import, so interpolating or dropping frames can't be avoided in that case, unless you rework all the animation to 24.
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Greenlaw
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Re: Dealing with different frame rates?

Post by Greenlaw »

Just curious but what exactly are you trying to do? Are you wanting to retime 24 fps footage to 30 fps? Is this to match the footage to video editorially or for compositing?

If it's an editorial issue, like bringing in 24 fps animation footage to cut with 30 video footage on a 30fps timeline, just let Vegas do its thing. Vegas will add or blend frames to make the animation appear to play at its normal speed. In other words, the animated footage is going to be altered slightly to play properly at 30 fps without speeding up, and you may not notice the difference. If it's critical that the animation remains 24 fps, then set your project to that rate and let Vegas time compress the live to 24 fps. You probably won't see a difference, or the difference may not really matter significantly.

If it's for compositing, it's best to match the anim's framerate to what the live footage it (i.e., animate at 30 fps,) especially if you intend to keep the live footage at its original frame rate. If the final output is going to be 24 fps, then the live should be conformed to that on Vegas' timeline. Vegas will drop frames or blend frames depending on the method you choose. Blending is probably going to look a little smoother in normal playback, but dropping frames is going to be easier to animate over to since you'll be animating to clean, unaltered frames.

In general, decide what you're final fps is, set your Vegas project to that, and then just import everything. I think in many cases, you probably not going to notice the dropped or added frames at playback speed unless there's interlacing involved. (And I agree about Smart Resampling...it's sometimes okay for live but I always leave it off for animation.)

The optical flow tools I mentioned are great but they can be slow to process so I wouldn't recommend them for many minutes of footage. Besides, they have their on brand of artifacting you may have to deal with. Because of the potential for artifacts, I typically use this effect at the end of a comp process (but not always...it's a case by case thing.)

The tools I mentioned are plugins or features in compositing programs but I believe there are standalone programs that can do the job too. If this is something you need to do often and routinely, it's probably worth investing in.

Of course the very best solution is just shoot/animate everything at the intended final framerate to begin with. I know that's not always possible when you're using footage show by another party but if you have any control over the specs, most modern video gear will let you record at different frame rates. (Unless you're shooting with a phone. Then, you're probably stuck with changing the fps as a post effect as described above.)
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