Mac Mini & Moho

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Timothy 2020
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Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:55 pm

Mac Mini & Moho

Post by Timothy 2020 »

I'd appreciate people's opinions on the specs for a Mac Mini we are considering purchasing over the next month to execute a long form project with Moho - which is software we also used a decade ago, for another long form project and back when it was called Anime Studio Pro!

3.2GHz 6‑core 8th‑generation Intel Core i7 (Turbo Boost up to 4.6GHz)
32GB 2666MHz DDR4
Intel UHD Graphics 630
2TB SSD storage

Now, this new project isn’t vector based - rather it has a 4K ‘painterly’ look based around multiple imported layers and there are 10 main characters, all with a painterly look.

Looking at the above Mac Mini configuration, I feel reasonably confident that Moho will work smoothly for our project.

However, one thing is bothering me. The Intel UHD Graphics 630! A lot of reviews of the Mac Mini bitch about this UHD Graphics 630 it has. Everyone is saying it’s a great machine, except for this component and they are all talking about using external GPUs to make up for it. It’s true they are often referring to ‘gaming’ and ‘100fps’ etc when they make this complaint. But occasionally they do mention ‘video editing’ when complaining about the graphics situation and that’s little a bit close to ‘animating’ for my liking.

When I  am actually using Moho itself and everything that involves, including previewing in Moho, will I have issues? I’m not so concerned about exporting/rendering which I don’t think would be an issue and which I don’t need speed for. But I do need to able to use Moho very fluidly and watch the 4k exported results without any problem, either

Part of me thinks the above config will be great, part of me is unsure because everyone complains about this Intel UHD Graphics 630.

Consider what this one reviewer says, when talking about the same model and specs:

“It is dead quiet during the most intensive of tasks, like editing 4K video while concurrently running memory-hogging applications like Chrome, Slack, TweetDeck, and my preferred web Gmail wrapper Wavebox. And it’s been lightning fast in every other regard, choking up only when exporting a 4K file in Adobe Premiere Pro while keeping quite a few other apps open and running simultaneously. And even then, it became only a bit sluggish, and I never experienced a single app crash or even a pinwheel.”

He only mentions the render as being a bit sluggish - and like I say, rendering taking time does not bother me!

Yet here is another reviewer, who admittedly is NOT using the same spec - he’s using one with only 8GB of Ram and i3 instead of i7 which makes it far slower - but otherwise it’s the same 2018 Mac Mini.
“The Mini performed better than I expected. Cutting footage, moving it around the timeline and basic playback were all smooth. It even played back 4K footage from my Sony FS5 with barely a hitch. The limitations of the machine become particularly apparent when I began adding titles and color-correction. Premiere Pro (and most editing software) relies heavily on the GPU to render real-time previews once you've started modifying the footage with color and effects. That proved to be a real challenge for the Mini, and the preview playback became increasingly choppy as I added even basic effects. Reducing the playback resolution helped a bit, but at a certain point, the footage just became challenging to work with…”
I hear people with the i7 and more RAM don't have any issue...

Would be VERY grateful for any and all opinions - especially on this particular subject of whether Moho will be hamstrung by the UHD Graphics 630 in the context of the rest of the above spec? Not as interested in hearing about other hardware alternatives, as this purchase is being made for many reasons relating to the project and not just this one important reason. 
I just wanna know if you guys think THIS spec will work with THIS software for THIS kinda project. I know it's a little bit vague, but tell me what your gut says?
I did search Lost Marble before posting and found some people saying Moho doesn’t rely as much on the GPU. Is that true? I know that some software does rely heavily on the GPU and some does not. I also know it’s not as obvious as one might expect - for instance, I would have expected all video editors to rely on the GPU, whereas some do and some rely much more on the CPU. How about Moho? Does anyone know!

I really, REALLY don’t want to use an external graphics card, but please give it to me straight, please? Do you reckon I will be able to use Moho fluidly with this configuration. Or am I fecked with this model... hah hahah

Sincere thanks in advance, fellow Moho users!
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synthsin75
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Re: Mac Mini & Moho

Post by synthsin75 »

You really need a dedicated graphics card. There's no way around that. It's probably the single most important spec for working in Moho.
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kimandreasjohansson
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:14 am

Re: Mac Mini & Moho

Post by kimandreasjohansson »

Hi Timothy!

Moho works alright on most newer Macs I have tested. But I´m sad to say that it runs kinda like garbage on Mac OS. As it seems at the moment Moho uses nothing of any gpu on a Mac as long as you don't boot into windows 10 with Boot Camp. (Which works very smoothly)

For some reason the GPU support got changed to an experimental feature in Moho 13 on both Windows and Mac OS. However, when I enable it on windows 10 the preview looks better and frame rate improves. In Mac OS (since Moho v.13) the button does absolutely nothing. My guess is that the developers are either giving up on (GPU support) on Mac due to the deprecation of OpenGL on Mac, or that they are working on a transition to METAL. It's very hard to say...

Read more about the lack of GPU support and poor optimisations for high resolution screens on Mac in these threads that might be useful in your decision.
https://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewto ... =2&t=32996
https://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewto ... ro#p189254

My advice:
- If you are buying a computer only to run Moho and nothing else, you might as well just buy a Windows machine with a dedicated GPU.
- If you need to run Moho in Mac OS, the GPU probably does absolutely no or very little difference at the current Moho version, so it doesn't really matter what gpu you have. It might change in version 14 though if it ever comes out!
- In Mac OS always enable Low Res mode by right clicking on the Moho app icon, if you have a screen resolution higher than 1080p (5k for instance). You don't need to do this in Windows cause the dpi density is already terrible there.

Hope this can help your decision a little bit.

Good luck!
Last edited by kimandreasjohansson on Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Visual artist based in Sweden.

iMac 5K (2017) 3.4 ghz i5, radeon pro 570, 16 gb ram
MacBook Air m1 16 gb ram
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kimandreasjohansson
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:14 am

Re: Mac Mini & Moho

Post by kimandreasjohansson »

kimandreasjohansson wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:30 am Hi Timothy!

Moho works alright on most newer Macs I have tested. But I´m sad to say that it runs kinda like garbage on Mac OS. As it seems at the moment Moho uses nothing of any gpu on a Mac as long as you don't boot into windows 10 with Boot Camp. (Which works very smoothly)

For some reason the GPU support got changed to an experimental feature in Moho 13 on both Windows and Mac OS. However, when I enable it on windows 10 the preview looks better and frame rate improves. In Mac OS (since Moho v.13) the button does absolutely nothing. My guess is that the developers are either giving up on (GPU support) on Mac due to the deprecation of OpenGL on Mac, or that they are working on a transition to METAL. It's very hard to say...

Read more about the lack of GPU support and poor optimisations for high resolution screens on Mac in these threads that might be useful in your decision.
https://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewto ... =2&t=32996
https://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewto ... ro#p189254

My advice:
- If you are buying a computer only to run Moho and nothing else, you might as well just buy a Windows machine with a dedicated GPU.
- If you need to run Moho in Mac OS, the GPU probably does absolutely no or very little difference at the current Moho version, so it doesn't really matter what gpu you have. It might change in version 14 though if it ever comes out!
- In Mac OS always enable Low Res mode by right clicking on the Moho app icon, if you have a screen resolution higher than 1080p (5k for instance). You don't need to do this in Windows cause the dpi density is already terrible there.

Hope this can help your decision a little bit.

Good luck!

But if you definitely are getting a Mac. In terms of overall value, it's a better purchase to buy a 5K iMac instead for most use cases. It will run Mac OS and Windows 10 well ( For Moho) and it has a dedicated GPU. Pop in some cheap RAM in the back to save some money. It's a safe bet.=)
Last edited by kimandreasjohansson on Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Visual artist based in Sweden.

iMac 5K (2017) 3.4 ghz i5, radeon pro 570, 16 gb ram
MacBook Air m1 16 gb ram
Timothy 2020
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:55 pm

Re: Mac Mini & Moho

Post by Timothy 2020 »

Thank you very much, synthsin75 & kimandreasjohansson!

I have a follow-up question, which is for both of you if that's okay?

Do you think an i5 processor is enough to use Moho with? That's 3.0GHz 6-core 8th-generation Intel Core i5 paired with 32GB of memory and a Radeon Pro 570X-4GB? It's the 5K iMac configuration I am looking at. I understand that it might be better than the Mac Mini spec I posted above, at least in terms of GPU, but my question is: would an i5 processor really be enough?

Beyond the Mac Mini prospect and the iMac prospect, there is also another prospect of a Macbook Pro - which would be i9, 16GB memory and Radeon Pro 5500M-8GB. I reckon the laptop is probably the best of all three options, but it's about EUR500 above our budget. We can stretch if necessary, but wondering if the iMac option would work as well. I know it's all relative and subjective, but would be interested in your thoughts.

Unfortunately we cannot work with Windows software, for a number of reasons.
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kimandreasjohansson
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Re: Mac Mini & Moho

Post by kimandreasjohansson »

Hi again!

I think both the iMac and the MacBook Pro are great computers. Just remember that if the guaranteed purpose of this computer is to run MOHO in Mac OS ONLY and nothing else. The things you pay extra for will not do you much advantage.

If you go for a Mac mini with an 6 core i7 you might get more MOHO POWER out of your machine per dollar than for the iMac or Macbook. The 8th gen intel CPU is kinda old but still a good processor for the job.

Yes you get a high dpi screen with the iMac and MacBook. (But Moho is unusable unless you run it in low res mode)
Yes you get a dedicated GPU with both the iMac and Macbook. (But in Mac OS the GPU is not utilised much or at all at the moment.)
Yes you can upgrade the ram yourself on the iMac. (You can do this as well on the Mac mini)

If you go for more than 16 gigs of ram with the Mac mini definitely consider upgrading it yourself it's not very hard if you follow guides at fixit.

Just for fun, here are some results I made testing the gpu activity while playing back or exporting. Might not be very scientific but still interesting I think.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4xaa26wcqnci7 ... 1.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1zom6uujn93g9 ... 2.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/12x91paqwksk5 ... 3.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ew9wjz1uumvif ... 4.jpg?dl=0
Visual artist based in Sweden.

iMac 5K (2017) 3.4 ghz i5, radeon pro 570, 16 gb ram
MacBook Air m1 16 gb ram
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kimandreasjohansson
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:14 am

Re: Mac Mini & Moho

Post by kimandreasjohansson »

kimandreasjohansson wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:56 am Hi again!

I think both the iMac and the MacBook Pro are great computers. Just remember that if the guaranteed purpose of this computer is to run MOHO in Mac OS ONLY and nothing else. The things you pay extra for will not do you much advantage.

If you go for a Mac mini with an 6 core i7 you might get more MOHO POWER out of your machine per dollar than for the iMac or Macbook. The 8th gen intel CPU is kinda old but still a good processor for the job.

Yes you get a high dpi screen with the iMac and MacBook. (But Moho is unusable unless you run it in low res mode)
Yes you get a dedicated GPU with both the iMac and Macbook. (But in Mac OS the GPU is not utilised much or at all at the moment.)
Yes you can upgrade the ram yourself on the iMac. (You can do this as well on the Mac mini)

If you go for more than 16 gigs of ram with the Mac mini definitely consider upgrading it yourself it's not very hard if you follow guides at fixit.

Just for fun, here are some results I made testing the gpu activity while playing back or exporting. Might not be very scientific but still interesting I think.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4xaa26wcqnci7 ... 1.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1zom6uujn93g9 ... 2.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/12x91paqwksk5 ... 3.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ew9wjz1uumvif ... 4.jpg?dl=0
But like I said before. If you intend to use the computer for anything beyond Moho in the future, both the iMac and the Macbook you suggested are great. Just remember that there might be new iMacs around the horizon soon so it might be a good move to hold on if you can.
Visual artist based in Sweden.

iMac 5K (2017) 3.4 ghz i5, radeon pro 570, 16 gb ram
MacBook Air m1 16 gb ram
Timothy 2020
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:55 pm

Re: Mac Mini & Moho

Post by Timothy 2020 »

Thanks SO much kimandreasjohansson - I greatly appreciate this detail!

I am now moving away from the Mac Mini due to the GPU deficiency and effectively choosing between the iMac 5k and the Macbook Pro - in fact, I am leaning heavily towards the iMac 5K. The only thing that's worrying me is the darned i5 processor that I will be stuck with at my budget. I am justifying it, by comparing it to my 2012 Macbook Pro Retina, which I used to cut a lot of 4K and found extremely fast. I never had any problem with it while it lasted for 6 years and then died.

This iMac 5K has a processor that is both faster than that old 2012 Macbook Pro Retina (3.0 vs 2.7) and has more cores (6 instead of 4). It will also have twice the RAM, 32Gb as opposed to 16GB after I buy 3 extra cards cheaply and pop them in the neat, user door. It will have a 4GB GPU that benchmarks tell me is 5 times better than the one in that 2012 Macbook Pro Retina. I will also have budget left be able to buy 2TB of Sandisk SSD memory, having only bought 256GB internally on the iMac. Of course, it will also have the much larger 5K screen - and considering this is a 4k animation project, I would rather work on a larger scale, instead of switching between the 16" screen of a Macbook Pro and a 24" inch screen I sometimes plug into, but which is only 1080p...

All in all, the iMac 5K seems the better option - and it's really just the i5 processor that worries me a bit, in light of the i9 in the Macbook Pro which would probably be so much more powerful.

See, if I do get the i9 Macbook Pro, I will be restricted to the cheapest 8 core model anyway, and nor can I even make the RAM jump to 32GB, but will have stay at the 16GB soldered inside. Of course, the graphics card would be 8GB, not 4GB - so that would be an improvement along with the faster i9. By the way, applications to be used MOHO and FINAL CUT PRO and maybe MAYA - so it's not only MOHO.

I am really just trying to figure out whether I would be 'held back' by the i5 or whether along with the 32GB memory and 4GB graphics and 2TB SSD it would be fast enough? Based on my experience of MOHO and FINAL CUT PRO on my 2012 Macbook, I think it SHOULD be fast enough - because, although that was i7, it was slower and has less cores and of course it was nearly 10 years ago...

Thoughts would be appreciated, as I see you own this iMac!
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kimandreasjohansson
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Re: Mac Mini & Moho

Post by kimandreasjohansson »

Timothy 2020 wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 12:32 am Thanks SO much kimandreasjohansson - I greatly appreciate this detail!

I am now moving away from the Mac Mini due to the GPU deficiency and effectively choosing between the iMac 5k and the Macbook Pro - in fact, I am leaning heavily towards the iMac 5K. The only thing that's worrying me is the darned i5 processor that I will be stuck with at my budget. I am justifying it, by comparing it to my 2012 Macbook Pro Retina, which I used to cut a lot of 4K and found extremely fast. I never had any problem with it while it lasted for 6 years and then died.

This iMac 5K has a processor that is both faster than that old 2012 Macbook Pro Retina (3.0 vs 2.7) and has more cores (6 instead of 4). It will also have twice the RAM, 32Gb as opposed to 16GB after I buy 3 extra cards cheaply and pop them in the neat, user door. It will have a 4GB GPU that benchmarks tell me is 5 times better than the one in that 2012 Macbook Pro Retina. I will also have budget left be able to buy 2TB of Sandisk SSD memory, having only bought 256GB internally on the iMac. Of course, it will also have the much larger 5K screen - and considering this is a 4k animation project, I would rather work on a larger scale, instead of switching between the 16" screen of a Macbook Pro and a 24" inch screen I sometimes plug into, but which is only 1080p...

All in all, the iMac 5K seems the better option - and it's really just the i5 processor that worries me a bit, in light of the i9 in the Macbook Pro which would probably be so much more powerful.

See, if I do get the i9 Macbook Pro, I will be restricted to the cheapest 8 core model anyway, and nor can I even make the RAM jump to 32GB, but will have stay at the 16GB soldered inside. Of course, the graphics card would be 8GB, not 4GB - so that would be an improvement along with the faster i9. By the way, applications to be used MOHO and FINAL CUT PRO and maybe MAYA - so it's not only MOHO.

I am really just trying to figure out whether I would be 'held back' by the i5 or whether along with the 32GB memory and 4GB graphics and 2TB SSD it would be fast enough? Based on my experience of MOHO and FINAL CUT PRO on my 2012 Macbook, I think it SHOULD be fast enough - because, although that was i7, it was slower and has less cores and of course it was nearly 10 years ago...

Thoughts would be appreciated, as I see you own this iMac!
Yeh, that iMac is definitely a good option if you use FCP and Maya too.

Good that you go for the SSD since that fusion drive really garbage. Just a tips, It doesn't hurt to shell out a bit extra for the internal 512 gig ssd just in case that you need to run boot camp later on for any reason. 256 gigs is not ideal for that.

I do only have experience of using the 5k base modell iMac with i5 3.4 with 4 core but it performs just fine even for quite complex Moho projects. Purely geek bench wise, The Intel Core i5-8500 @ 3.0 GHz (6 cores) that you are talking about seems to perform even a bit faster than the faster 5k iMac processor that you could buy in 2017 (Intel Core i7-7700K @ 4.2 GHz (4 cores). So you should be absolutely fine I think.

Good luck again!
Visual artist based in Sweden.

iMac 5K (2017) 3.4 ghz i5, radeon pro 570, 16 gb ram
MacBook Air m1 16 gb ram
Timothy 2020
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:55 pm

Re: Mac Mini & Moho

Post by Timothy 2020 »

Thanks kimandreasjohansson - this is very helpful!
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