How come the moho silence?

General Moho topics.

Moderators: Fahim, Distinct Sun, Víctor Paredes, erey, Belgarath, slowtiger

do you agree?

Poll ended at Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:49 pm

yes
1
13%
no
7
88%
 
Total votes: 8
marten
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How come the moho silence?

Post by marten » Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:49 pm

Here's this great, great, super-great tool... and not a single word about it anywhere!?
No tutorial (not really... sorry myles)
no forum (this one's a joke... like 34 postings in 'General Discussion')
hell to find anything about moho

why?
I dont get it!

When will I find a webbpage on 3d in moho?
When will I find tips, trix, and a living community?

(don't rip my head off - i wrote this because i love moho)
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Lost Marble
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Re: How come the moho silence?

Post by Lost Marble » Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:13 pm

marten wrote:No tutorial (not really... sorry myles)
Tutorials are in the manual included with the program. If you're using version 5, the manual isn't finished yet - it's still in beta.
marten wrote:no forum (this one's a joke... like 34 postings in 'General Discussion')
This forum is kind of new. There used to be a Yahoo group until we switched over to this board. If you want to get technical, there are actually 171 posts in 'General Discussion' grouped into 32 topics. There are over 1600 posts total in the entire forum - 'General Discussion' is not the most active sub-forum. If you've read all 1600 posts and you're looking for more ( :lol: ), then just click the "View posts since last visit" link when you come back to go straight to the new stuff.
Last edited by Lost Marble on Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
myles
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Re: How come the moho silence?

Post by myles » Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:39 am

marten wrote:No tutorial (not really... sorry myles)
No worries - the content in my tips section (along with most of the rest of my site) is mostly way out-of-date :oops: , with only a couple possibly still worth reading. I hope to get back to it and do some revision and updating, but probably won't until maybe later this year, or early next year. :roll:
Lost Marble wrote:Tutorials are in the manual included with the program. If you're using version 5, the manual isn't finished yet - it's still in beta.
If you have 5.0 beta 4, you can see a juicy set of tutorial headings, although the tutorials themselves are not yet available.
Lost Marble wrote:
marten wrote:When will I find tips, trix, and a living community?
This forum is kind of new. There used to be a Yahoo group until we switched over to this board.
The switch only happened in August, so all 1600+ posts have happened in the last 2 months - that's fairly lively!
marten wrote:When will I find a webbpage on 3d in moho?
Possibly after version 5.0 (the first to feature 3D props) is finally released, along with tutorials - then you can be the first to write the web page! :wink: :D

If you're talking about 3D depth and orientation in layers, see Tutorials 16, 17, and 18 (and, for particles, 19) in Moho 4.6.

Regards, Myles.
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Post by nobudget » Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:15 pm

Before you start complaining you should have done your homework. Did you not notice the posts are all recent? That's because Lost Marble switched to a new forum. And if you look here day-by-day you'd see this forum is actually very active. I won't rip your head off but I just don't see any justification for this poll really...You want a complete webpage (one "b" is enough, ok NOW I'm ripping) about 3D while Moho is basically a 2D program and proud of it. I you really love Moho so much why don't you create tutorials, webpages and oh yeah, add one than one post to this non-existant forum.

Sorry about the rant, Lost Marble deserves better...

Reindert.
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kdiddy13
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Post by kdiddy13 » Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:40 pm

I think Lost Marble's calm, reasoned response says tons about their attitude towards its customers. No matter how crazy or insulting our requests and comments are, Lost Marble's responses are always well thought out and even warm, especially given how insulting we can sound.

I have some ideas for tutorials that I've come up with as well, but again to reiterate what's already been said, I'll wait until the final docs are published to avoid redundancy.

If you have a specific question, try posting it. I think you'll be suprised at how many respond and how quickly they do so. I have yet to see a problem go unsolved for very long here.
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Last edited by kdiddy13 on Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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spasmodic_cheese
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Post by spasmodic_cheese » Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:34 am

i agree with nobudget, marten your being very presumptious.
This community is friendly and active, turn your hate into love.

Otherwise we'll eat your face off. *licks lips*
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Yooperville
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In Defense Of Marten ...

Post by Yooperville » Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:37 am

I thought this was a great post. Thought-provoking. Nothing insulting about honestly stating your first impressions. So, why doesn't everyone own a copy of Moho? If the product is so great, how does the word get out? Who takes responsibility for that?

1) Lost Marble does a great job. Demo mode? Perfect. Tutorials/manuals? Above average. Responsiveness? Unnaturally fast. What else can they do? Keep on trucking.

2) See ZBrush forum (http://206.145.80.239/zbc/index.php). Marten, is that what you had in mind? Note the fine print. ZBrush forum: 27,696 registered users. Moho forum: 205 registered users. Moho forum motto: Quality, not quantity.

A lot of people post WIP's to ZBrush forum. Something to think about.

Something else to think about: ZBrush used to be a niche product. Pixologic worked hard to make it a better tool for 3D professionals. It's become popular. Lessons there? Professional/semi-professional animators: What keeps Moho out of your workflow?

3) See Firefox web browser v1.0 promotional campaign (http://www.spreadfirefox.com/). Users volunteered, got the word out. Posted links everywhere allowed by law. Why can't the Moho community use the same tactics for the v5.0 release? Where possible, talk it up. Marten, where did you look for information about Moho, but not find any? That's one place to start.

When v.5.0 is posted on VersionTracker and MacUpdate and elsewhere, we should make it a point to write reviews when time permits. Since v5.0 is a free update for a lot of us, it's the least we can do. We could use this forum to list places user reviews are accepted.

I guess I take marten's comments as a challenge to find more ways to get the word out. Version 5 release seems like a good opportunity.

So ... welcome to the Moho user community, marten. Watch for the new tutorials in v5.0. Keep posting. And if no one else writes a 3D tutorial, I swear I will. Someday. I don't know if Moho has enough 3D features for a whole website though. :D

Best -- Greg.
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Lost Marble
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Post by Lost Marble » Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:56 am

Speaking of 3D, check out Tutorial 6.8 when Moho 5 is released. It shows you how you can do things like this:

http://www.lostmarble.com/misc/head.mov

or this:

http://www.lostmarble.com/misc/scene.mov
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spasmodic_cheese
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Post by spasmodic_cheese » Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:06 am

What keeps Moho out of your workflow?
For me this is, mainly the highlearning curve, i'll open up moho expect it to worka certain way, ,and it doesnt, but when i learn it, it actually works a better way. It just stops thought flow for me, and until i learn it off the back of my hand....

Also I've found I get stuck in preproduction, my ideas are flowing. and I just get throttled at the neck setting up one character. Altho I know it saves me tonnes of time for the future, it can be a fatal poison to my passion and will.

and then theres the bugs...

which brings me onto then ext half of this post.

Moho 5 isn't finished. Hence why there is only a couple of hundred members. Moho is a niche of its own, when i tell people about moho they go
"so its like digital paper"....well uhhh no..wait sortof.....
"so like flash"....no....sortof....exports to swf! .....
"like a 3d app?".....uhhh....no...but yes.....

i could answer them better, but generally people are deeply confused by it, until they SEE it, then it blows them away.

Zbrush is a finished product that has been going on for years...
There is also alot more hype in 3d animation than in 2d animation.

all in all, getting the word out now wont be doing many favours for LM...
"OHH COOL MOHO, Moho 5, beta.....demo.....ahh yeh i'l lwait till its finished before i buy.... *forgets*"
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DK
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Post by DK » Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:44 am

I want tutorial 6.8 ASAP pleeeese!!! :D
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7feet
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Post by 7feet » Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:23 am

Okay, Mr. Lost Marble Guy, I wanna know how you did the first one. Have you added individual faces to the depth sorting or something? I had posted an early experiment with putting 2d features on an imported 3d head shape, but when I saw the nose mask out the mouth on that sample, I was kind of shocked. You've said recently that you didn't like announcing new features because people expect a lot then, but if if I saw what I think I saw, youse guys got some rabbits up yer sleeves. A WIP copy of the tutorial would sure make a lot of us happy, but as you need.

Even though at this point I've been using Moho for about 2 years, I remember when I first dove in that i didn't think the learning curve was too steep. Hard to say as I've been playing pretty hard with the beta. I originally heard about Moho quite a while ago, but lost it again. I couldn't let go the basic idea of of a 2d vector animation program with bone control. When I found it again, as a pysical 3d effects person who loves cartoons...hooked.

But that also relates to the general Web presence. Parsing through Googles' description of how they rate sites in their index, a good portion of it seems to me, at the moment, "how many other sites link to this site?" So, posting in other well trafficked forums can't hurt at all. Right now, if I do a search on Moho most anywhere, most of the links are related to plate tectonics. Not to nudge out the crustal scientists, but that could be better.

It's still a Beta that mostly folks from the old list have been priveledged to try to beat into submission. And either holding up nicely or fixed right quick. In reference to Zbrush, which I think is a helluva tool, it's an apples and oranges and guavas kinda thing. And 3D has been the tool of the moment for a while, so they are bound to get more market saturation. Doesn't do animation, but I have been wondering about using it to import 3d environments into Moho. Anyone brought detailed 3D backgrounds in? I'm curious how it looks. But I think there are plenty of animators who just need to know it exists. Even if they were all Trad, it could be such a handy tool.

Also, don't give Marten too much guff. A lot of forums seem to dictate that you state you're opinions, um, strongly, or you won't be heard. This ain't one of 'em, thankfully. Give it time and we'll have piles of people here, and hopefully keep the tone.

--Brian
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Post by nobudget » Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:38 pm

Bigger is not always better. Bigger companies are the least responsive in service and charge the most. Bigger communities tend to get off-topic and impossible to navigate. Bigger burgers make you fat...wait, now I'm getting off-topic...

Anyway, I'd guess Lost Marble wants to make a living writing programs like this, the customers want a good product that remains in development and support by the makers and a friendly community. I've seen the same discussion on the Mediachance DVDLab forum and the Pure Motion Editstudio forum, two other small companies with superior products and service. And they realise it's almost impossible to get noticed because the media just will not give them a chance and marketing will only make the products more expensive.

What do I do to endorse these independents? I test their trial versions, I buy if I like it and it is affordable, I point everyone looking for that type of software to their website and I try to help out community members where I can (I'm a Moho novice, so I'm not as active as I would like). And I hope Lost Marble makes enough money to keep on developping, remains interested in his software and has a roof over his head. And maybe one day he'll find his marble if we all take the time and look for it :)

Reindert.
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Postality
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Post by Postality » Wed Oct 13, 2004 5:29 pm

Lost Marble wrote:Speaking of 3D, check out Tutorial 6.8 when Moho 5 is released. It shows you how you can do things like this:

http://www.lostmarble.com/misc/head.mov

or this:

http://www.lostmarble.com/misc/scene.mov
Damn, see I wish you could do 3D stuff in moho like the last example instead of inporting those wings3D models and such. I really dislike those proprams tools, they are just such a pain in the butt. I'm really use to the tools in moho and am happy with them. I don't want to have to use another program to draw things, I like the moho tools =)

Good work, looks great.
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marten
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Thanks for all input on the subject.

Post by marten » Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:38 pm

I think im gonna stay here. people are friendly.

I caught "nobudget" in a bad mood but thats alright - i critisized (hope i didnt misspell this one too) Moho and the forum and probebly (unsure about this one aswell) got what i deserved.

"Yopperville" understood what i was trying to say and didnt get all "he's strangling my baby!" about it.

My view of the matter is unchanged but now have softer edges.
Thanks for your input.
nobudget
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Post by nobudget » Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:46 pm

You gave me that bad mood :x but I got some therapy and I'm over it now :lol:
To make things better a link for you: www.dictionary.com ...you seem to need it :wink:
Anyway, don't let me or anybody else put you off, I personally dislike forums where you always have to try and be subtle and nice and worry about (not) offending people. Probably (you see, looks better this way) because I like offending people now and again. Well regularly...well often really.
To be honest, I'll type anything to get my number of posts higher basically.

Reindert.
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