sheep skin for padding?

General Moho topics.

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kaush
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sheep skin for padding?

Post by kaush »

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7feet
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Post by 7feet »

On the top toolbar, Animation>Select Soundtrack. In version 5, it's also at File>Import>Soundtrack. Hope that helps.

--Brian
kaush
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Post by kaush »

Thanks Brian
I will definitely try it.
Postality
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Post by Postality »

This is what I was talking about before.

it's more vital that moho be able to add sounds throughout the timeline.

moho right now support a single "soundtrack" which is mainly used for music since it is very difficult to create a seperate audio file and have it sync with a cartoon.

I was thinking of an "audio" layer such as we have for vector layer, bone layer, etc. and have it act somewhat like a folder. and then you can add sounds from your computer into the layer and use them where you'd like in the timeline.

If you want to add sound effects and stuff like that, moho definately isn't what you want to use. It's better to use moho to animate the scene, then use something like flash to add sounds to the completed swf file.

The only COMPLETE animation package I've seen for 2D animation is toon boom studio. But that's a more tradition kind of software and well it takes to much time to see quality results.

Moho is my tool of choice, I just wish it had more options and features.
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AcouSvnt
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Post by AcouSvnt »

Not to keep singling you out for abuse, Postality ... but back in the olden days (long before my time) the soundtrack was always completed before any animation began. This wasn't a bad thing. You'd have someone listen to the soundtrack and mark where all the sound effects were, and then the animation was timed to that. Since sound is made in real time, and animation isn't, I would think you'd have a better feel for the pace of a scene by doing its soundtrack first, at least with dialogue and timing-critical sound effects (which you could remix a little later into the game to add ambient background noise or music).

Also, a lot of soundfile editors will allow you to display time in units of "frames", and let you designate the frames per second to match your project. If you have clips in said editor, you can move them around if you still decide after the fact to shorten or lengthen something. You won't get the immediate visual feedback, but it's not that hard to say "okay, that happens at frame 37 now" and adjust and remix your sound file accordingly; and you're still working with far more luxurious tools than the pioneers of the art ever had.
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Post by Postality »

that approach it teedious and time consuming. and I prefer animating a scene before the audio.

Think of a fight scene with 250 + sound effects in it. it would be much easier to lay them out if you can see where the animation time is and just put a sound in rather then have moho and some audio app open and keep flicking back and forth checking what frame each sound should be displayed at.

It's much easier to wrap the sound around the animation then it is to wrap the animation around the sound.

It may be the way you do it but it definately isn't an easy mothod by no means.

I work in scene planning mode first, laying it out as comic style frames on paper, animate it, and then add the sound to it. that's the easiest way to get an amazing result. At least for me.
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Post by 7feet »

One of the problems I see with actuall inserting numerous separate audio file is simply the processor overhead. Moho's real-time display can bog down on complex animations already, and a lot of audio processing could slow it to a total crawl. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind having it as an option but I don't think there's a possibility it's going to appear right now.

Here's a rough framework for an arrangement that might make things a lot easier.

1. Define what you're sound effects are by creating a Note layer with the sound effects file name as the layer name. If you want to get fancy, a Lua script could be written that would allow you to browse for a file and then auto name the layer.

2. Create a visibility keyframe on the Note layer for each instance of the sound effect. You could also define a keyframe to make the layer invisible to define a length for the sample. If there is only a single instance of the sound effect, and you create the note layer at the frame you want the SFX, you're done. Toggling the visibility on and off also gives you a visual reference to when sounds are happening .

3. Write a Lua script that will export the relevant information. The way I would go initially (very simple) would require that you have all of you're sound effects in one folder. Tell the script which folder holds your audio. The script then saves a text file that lists each audio file, and the frames at which it appears.

You could use this output several ways. One, just read it and put in you're SFX at the relevant frames without having to go back and forth. Or, if you're editing app has sufficient scripting abilities, write an interpreter to import the files and drop them in place for you. It's not a whole lot of info, so it shouldn't be too difficult to implement.

If that sounds viable, I'm sure we can work something out. I'm up for writing the export, but someone with experience would have to write the import scripts for other apps. Myself, I'd most likely just use the printout, wouldn't take more than a few minutes to hit it on the nose. Let me know if anyone is interested. If so, we could move this to a more relevant part of the forum.

--Brian
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AcouSvnt
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Post by AcouSvnt »

Postality wrote:that approach it teedious and time consuming.

Well, you know. It is animation. Hello there. :roll:

I can see how it would be nice for you to be able to slide your POW!, KABOOM!, BIFF! and ZING! around in the timeline to match your hits in that there neverending fight scene of yours; but then suppose suddenly you realize the level of one sound is too quiet relative to another. At that point you're going to need to ask Moho to put in amplification controls. Unless ... unless you're using an external application for editing sound, in which case you'll have everything you need, and more as you discover your desire for ever greater control over your sound.

Added note after the fact: this post looks a little rude if you just kinda glance at it, but that wasn't the intent. I just think it's kind of funny for someone into animation to complain about something being tedious and time consuming; kind of like someone into water sports complaining about possibly getting wet.
Last edited by AcouSvnt on Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by DK »

Just to add my two cents worth....I make TV commercials for a living and it is standard procedure to make the soundfrack first then add the animation afterwards. reason being...most TV stations have strict guidelines that apply to soundtack length on air. Out here it's 29 secs sound with 1/2 sec silence either end of the TV commercial.

Hope that helps.

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Post by Postality »

AcouSvnt wrote:
Postality wrote:that approach it teedious and time consuming.
Well, you know. It is animation. Hello there. :roll:

I can see how it would be nice for you to be able to slide your POW!, KABOOM!, BIFF! and ZING! around in the timeline to match your hits in that there neverending fight scene of yours; but then suppose suddenly you realize the level of one sound is too quiet relative to another. At that point you're going to need to ask Moho to put in amplification controls. Unless ... unless you're using an external application for editing sound, in which case you'll have everything you need, and more as you discover your desire for ever greater control over your sound.
No need to get offensive. I was simply using a fight scene as an example. everyone animates differently. I'm just pointing out that there should be other options for people that animate alternative ways.

Sure the sound first then animation after works for some people, but I'm sure we're not the only ones who want to animate the opposite way.

And no a need for editing the sounds aren't needed, there are superior software for that that tells you exactly how high the db is etc.

we're asking for an option so you can put those made sound effects in the animation. such as flash, toon boom, the tab etc.
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AcouSvnt
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Post by AcouSvnt »

Yes, but if you have multiple sounds on the timeline, they will overlap, and you would be essentially mixing them in moho. And that is the point at which you will realize some of them need to be adjusted relative to each other.
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Post by Postality »

If you've used flash which I'm assuming you have, you can use mulitple "layers" to put sounds on. sometimes you want sounds to overlap such as a music track playing while a sound effect goes off etc. it works very well and proper to what you would want.

flash is one that has this feature, it's quite expensive to just add sound effects and you're not going to even use the program except for this feature of it. Not very cost efficient for $300+ dollars. I'm a hobbiest and do this for fun, not for a living.

I like the ability to scan through my animation and find the part where a part of a character talks and know that's where to insert the audio for it.

To me this is the easiest way to get a animation complete with audio and sync it nicely.
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Post by AcouSvnt »

You're missing my point. It doesn't matter if the sound clips appear to physically overlap each other or if they're in separate rows visually; the sound of the clips would overlap. Therefore Moho would be mixing the clips into one soundtrack, and once you get into this, you will start to want more control over how they're mixed together. So just plopping them in onto a timeline, or several parallel timelines, is going to necessitate at the very minimum some kind of level manipulation.

Just so you know, it's not that I don't like your idea; I actually do like it, and I've thought of the same thing myself, but Myles brought up a good point on a similar issue when I suggested a built-in text editor for scripting, which is that Lost Marble should focus their energies on what makes the product unique, and not on stuff we can deal with in separate applications. You already said yourself that you have a way of adding sounds after the fact by moving the project into Flash. So why duplicate something you already have the capability of?
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Post by Postality »

I just thought that since they have a sound track option and switch layers that use sounds that it wouldn't be that hard to add this option. another reason why is because as I explained I'm a hobbiest and well it doesn't seem very logical to spend 300 dollars on flash to have the ability to add a few sound effects to my animation. I wouldn't be using all the features of the program, so that 300 dollars would be quite a hit to take for a small feature of the app.

I primarily do audio (Music, beats, and soundtracks.) and those programs are great for fine tuning sounds. there are also alot of free audio apps that have powerful enough tools to get a nice edited sound effect. So as for needing more control over how the audio sounds in moho isn't very important. however trying to add sound effects to moho exports isn't cheap, but I'm still looking around for something cheap or free that can do this.

So basically the bottom line is, there's alot of audio apps that are cheap / free to tweak the volume, pitch you name it in a sound effect to get it to sound the way you like, but there isn't any cheap / free apps that can add sound effects and music to movie files, there are things like virtualdub that can add a audio track to avi's, but those just add "soundtrack" type things that moho already does. and I'm also talking more about flash SWF files.

I found one that's 50 dollars US I'm in canada and it would be more like 80, but again it's a full blown app and that's not what I want to pay or need for what I want to do...

If we had this feature to add sound effects and tracks etc to moho. then it would be easy enough to point people to cheap / free audio apps that they could use to tweak thier sound before they added them to thier animation.

I can understand that people would want to tweak it and stuff like that within moho. but there's free apps out there that you can use to get the job done and it won't cost you a dime. this isn't the case with the ability to add in sound effects.
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Post by 2ner »

I too wish Moho had this functionality of which Postality speaks. I admit I don't understand the programming obstacles, but it seems doable to me. Each little sound clip file is imported into its own layer much like an image layer with a png file. It has layer controls for volume, etc. It would be nice if you could use it over and over again for something like the sound of a footstep.
I see the cpu overhead issue, but it's not going to be an issue when you're not using it.
Maybe Lost Marble doesn't know much about sound and developing that side of the software is outside its area of expertise.
I'm just getting into this software (& animation in general) and figure I should be able to create good animation with it, but if after accomplishing that, I have to buy and learn how to use sound editing software and compositing software, well the task becomes rather too daunting. It would be much easier for me if all this could be done inside Moho.
The lack of these abilities in Moho seems to make it an incomplete animation program. Editing the sound and integrating it with the animation aren't things that should be left out of the best 2D animation software in the world.
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