Any rumblings of a date for Moho 13 yet?

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alanthebox
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Re: Any rumblings of a date for Moho 13 yet?

Post by alanthebox » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:54 pm

chucky wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:31 pm
Enjoy!
Thanks for posting! Really looking forward to the frame by frame video!
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Re: Any rumblings of a date for Moho 13 yet?

Post by chucky » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:20 pm

Actually I already made one ages ago for vector FBF, thee workflow would be exactly the same but with bitmap layers
Last edited by chucky on Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Any rumblings of a date for Moho 13 yet?

Post by drumlug13 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:25 pm

That's awesome & all Chucky but I gotta ask... How did you guys end up calling chickens "Chooks" down there? :D
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Re: Any rumblings of a date for Moho 13 yet?

Post by chucky » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:29 pm

drumlug13 wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:25 pm
That's awesome & all Chucky but I gotta ask... How did you guys end up calling chickens "Chooks" down there? :D
Chickens? What is this word ,chickens?
Actually down here in Tassie we have wild fowl that are called universally, Turbo Chooks! They are everywhere and they behave exactly like they sound.
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Re: Any rumblings of a date for Moho 13 yet?

Post by djwaterman » Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:25 am

drumlug13 wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:25 pm
That's awesome & all Chucky but I gotta ask... How did you guys end up calling chickens "Chooks" down there? :D
I think it's because that's the sound chickens make.
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Re: Any rumblings of a date for Moho 13 yet?

Post by Daxel » Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:02 pm

Wow nice videos chucky! that is good advertising.
I have mixed feelings now. On one hand, the bitmap engine seems to be pretty awesome, and I feel like that is a very good thing to atract new users and if the software makes more money that is good for everyone because that could make it grow faster. On the other hand, I'm here because of the unique vector animation and rigging approach of moho, that I think are the best of any program but need to be refined, and it seems like they have not made any improvements in that aspect. Some scripts for Moho 12, like Mult Rush's (KuzKuz) mix smartbones script or his modified transform points and curvature tools (I love this guy), are much more important for me than the new features of Moho 13 (I hope they work with the new version). But overall at least I am happy to see the new team is doing a good job and the program is getting improvements.
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Re: Any rumblings of a date for Moho 13 yet?

Post by chucky » Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:32 pm

HI Daxel, thanks!
Yes I know what you are saying, there are a lot of things that us who know Moho would love to have seen get done.
I understand it like this... that stuff would have definitely been on the cards by the old team who knew Moho inside and out.
Imagine coming to this app that takes time for even users to understand, imaging being thrown in the deep end of Moho to write code for specialised and unique processes, it would be more than daunting.
This is all supposition so I'm just spit balling, but I would imagine graphics programmers would have some stuff that they already know, and as they poke around the moho code could implement stuff unrelated to the core while they get to know the app, and how users use it. I mean What the hell is Moho to someone who doesn't know it... smart bones? Whaa?
The bitmap will be incredibly useful and I think was a brilliant way to be productive in what could have been a long long time just learning Moho.
I want to see exactly that stuff you mentioned too, corrective poses in smart actions, modular rigging, we also need masking fixes.
One f the side effects of the bitmap initiative is that the rendering engine has to be examine and utilised to implement the feature.
When doing this I can imagine that the devs would be finding ways to rebuild the engine so that masking renders can be fixed.
Who knows the extent of the flow on from the bitmap implementation.
After doing all this I bet the devs are much more confident inside the environment and probably inspired and ready to start smashing that vector stuff.
The tweaking in the 3d was probably exactly the same, on the surface it might not look huge to us, but if its more back end heavy lifting, I would assume the flow on stuff that we want will be much easier to smash out.
Let;s see what happens, just know that these changes mean that point releases have a strong base to build on and the new devs have been swimming in the Moho pool for a while, so the deep end isn't nearly so scary.
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Re: Any rumblings of a date for Moho 13 yet?

Post by bebemustacio » Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:17 pm

For me bitmap engine is something that I really need in Moho, so I was pretty excited about that new feature. But now after I try it, it looks that I cant get clear lines in render. It looks pixelated like there is no anti aliasing, Is anyone satisfied with bitmap lines render? Can I do something to make it look better. For now, it's good only for rough animation. Final animation lines and backgrounds don't give me any kind of production level.
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Re: Any rumblings of a date for Moho 13 yet?

Post by Daxel » Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:48 pm

chucky wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:32 pm
HI Daxel, thanks!
Yes I know what you are saying, there are a lot of things that us who know Moho would love to have seen get done.
I understand it like this... that stuff would have definitely been on the cards by the old team who knew Moho inside and out.
Imagine coming to this app that takes time for even users to understand, imaging being thrown in the deep end of Moho to write code for specialised and unique processes, it would be more than daunting.
This is all supposition so I'm just spit balling, but I would imagine graphics programmers would have some stuff that they already know, and as they poke around the moho code could implement stuff unrelated to the core while they get to know the app, and how users use it. I mean What the hell is Moho to someone who doesn't know it... smart bones? Whaa?
The bitmap will be incredibly useful and I think was a brilliant way to be productive in what could have been a long long time just learning Moho.
I want to see exactly that stuff you mentioned too, corrective poses in smart actions, modular rigging, we also need masking fixes.
One f the side effects of the bitmap initiative is that the rendering engine has to be examine and utilised to implement the feature.
When doing this I can imagine that the devs would be finding ways to rebuild the engine so that masking renders can be fixed.
Who knows the extent of the flow on from the bitmap implementation.
After doing all this I bet the devs are much more confident inside the environment and probably inspired and ready to start smashing that vector stuff.
The tweaking in the 3d was probably exactly the same, on the surface it might not look huge to us, but if its more back end heavy lifting, I would assume the flow on stuff that we want will be much easier to smash out.
Let;s see what happens, just know that these changes mean that point releases have a strong base to build on and the new devs have been swimming in the Moho pool for a while, so the deep end isn't nearly so scary.
Yes, I also think that way. Building something from scratch like the bitmap engine should require much less knoledge about Moho than building on top of any already existing part. I also hope they can start working on vector stuff now that they know more.

Bebemustacio are you talking about how it looks on the view panel while you are working on it, or also the final image once exported? I heard something about GPU rendering being experimental... but I dont know, maybe chucky can help you. What do you need bitmap for? Static drawings like backgrounds or something else?
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Re: Any rumblings of a date for Moho 13 yet?

Post by chucky » Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:53 pm

It looks pixelated like there is no anti aliasing, Is anyone satisfied with bitmap lines render? Can I do something to make it look better. For now, it's good only for rough animation. Final animation lines and backgrounds don't give me any kind of production level.
For now I would use the bitmap for what it's really best for, texture and colour. Also sketching keyframes.
Vector is perfect for outlines, sharp no matter how close you get.
Use vector mask for sharp edges with no outlines, still sharp independent of resolution put the bitmap over the top for that artistic look.

That aliasing needs tweaking no doubt. Luckily now we have the best of both worlds. Eh?
Dev will get that sorted , hopefully soon Eh?
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Re: Any rumblings of a date for Moho 13 yet?

Post by bebemustacio » Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:13 pm

For now I would use the bitmap for what it's really best for, texture and colour. Also sketching keyframes.
Yes, that's the plan. Having option for texturing and shading with bitmap brushes is already a very big deal, as well as natural filling of drawing bitmap rough animation. I'm sure that rendering will be approved or maybe its just matter of fine adjustments of brushes when that options are unlocked. It reminds me of brush engine in Procreate, that is the best drawing tool for me.. so maybe we will get similar results in Moho in the future.
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Re: Any rumblings of a date for Moho 13 yet?

Post by yueda » Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:30 pm

Unfortunatelly I'm too busy to try Moho 13 trial myself. Did they add "Node System" like MickSee was saying last year? Because that's the only feature I wanted to see in the long waited new release.
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Re: Any rumblings of a date for Moho 13 yet?

Post by Designspaceman » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:06 am

I'm not happy with the new features of Moho 13. Yes, you can use the bitmap tool for nice drawings. You can achieve certain styles. But you cannot combine it with vectors to get a visually convincing result. Its just like bebemustacio says: not ready for production. And by the way: a smooth line should be the first ever brush that is working in a drawing engine. As Charles Kenway mentioned on Facebook: its a known legacy. In this case SM released too early.
Another point: If you want to fill your outlines you have this MS Paint 1997 Bucket, that is not able to do a clean fill. If I have to do the fill all by hand, then better do the animation in Clip Studio Paint.
Last Point: I tried to render the exact same scene in 12 an 13. 13 is 12 times slower with this. I don't have any idea why.
I was sitting on my money since last autumn just waiting to buy the new version. Now I'm not even near a reason to invest.
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Re: Any rumblings of a date for Moho 13 yet?

Post by bebemustacio » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:32 am

What do you need bitmap for? Static drawings like backgrounds or something else?
dear Daxel, I'm interested in vector/bitmap combination for character animation. On one side, I would use vector shaped rigs with bitmap textures, and bit map shading. But for the complicated camera angles or actions, where rigs are not usable (without making a rig just for one shoot), I would make frame by frame animation. And I would love if I could do that with bitmap brushes. For now, texturing with new bitmap Moho engine is ok. But for clean bit map frame animation I don't get good results in rendering.
Of course, maybe with unlocked brush settings I could make it work, but for now I didn't find any simple clear line brush. And why I don't use vector, for frame animation... Because its much quicker and more natural for me to draw frame by frame then to move or make vector points for every frame.
I would love if I could make with bitmap brushes in Moho something like this I made in Procreate that is not animation friendly at all.
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Re: Any rumblings of a date for Moho 13 yet?

Post by chucky » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:04 am

The default brushes are greyed, duplicate a brush and you can play with any setting you like.
I would be interested if you could override the render by altering them. :shock:
It's the fine dark lines that have the aliasing issues.
Of course if you learn to use the vector freehand ( it's a settings issue- turn off welding and all that yadayada) , it is perfectly usable and bitmap is great to colour so, I really think it's not a huge issue realistically for pro work.
Clean lines vector, arty lost edges, bitmap.

Aliasing will be fixed no doubt, don't write off 13 just yet, there's always a point release in any app after a version. :mrgreen:
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