Moho 13 vs 12.5, preview quality loss?

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Reindeer
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Moho 13 vs 12.5, preview quality loss?

Post by Reindeer » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:44 am

I have problems with the general visualisation in Moho 13, and it's not confined to bitmaps. Even vector brushes look like they suffer poor preview quality.
Here is a quick test: the doodle was created in Moho 12.5 and contemporarily opened both in 12.5 and 13.
The shapes are clearly crisper and curves are much softer in 12.5, hands down. The feather-shaped brush I used for the beard is obviously better visualised by Moho 12.5, in Moho 13 the pattern is jagged. The overall display is worse in 13 (and these are vectors, for bitmaps it gets worse). Or could it be the trial version?

The doodle is drawn with vector brushes, the apps are open side-to-side, same zoom percentage. In both cases, GPU is turned on, preview modes are identical, and an empty 'neutral' layer was highlighted to prevent any difference in quality on the layers containing graphics.

Image


P.S. I just tried a reversed test, creating a similar doodle in Moho 13, exporting it as Moho 12 and reopening in in both apps, side by side as in the previous example. Same scenario: graphics are perfect in Moho 12.5 but jaggy and angular in Moho 13.
This is particularly bad when one is working at full stage (zoomed out). Small objects will look clunky and without detail in Moho 13. For example: the features on a character's face will not have enough detail to be accurately animated.

PP.SS.: In a bout of doubt, I set a content folder (as Moho 13 prompts you to do on startup). I hadn't done this yet, being still in trial mode, but did so just in case that could've been the origin of the problem... but no, same thing.
Last edited by Reindeer on Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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synthsin75
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Re: Moho 13 vs 12.5, preview quality loss?

Post by synthsin75 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:43 pm

Do you have GPU acceleration enabled/disabled in both?
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Re: Moho 13 vs 12.5, preview quality loss?

Post by Reindeer » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:00 pm

synthsin75 wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:43 pm
Do you have GPU acceleration enabled/disabled in both?
Yes, the Preview Modes are identical, including GPU = ON (or OFF, I tried various combinations). As far as I can double-check, the example shows 13 & 12.5 set to the same viewing conditions.
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Re: Moho 13 vs 12.5, preview quality loss?

Post by synthsin75 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:25 pm

All my tests have the same preview quality in both versions. My next guess would be that 12.5 is using your dedicated graphics card while 13 is using your integrated graphics.

If you're on Windows, you can right-click the Moho shortcuts, chose "Run with graphics processor", and select anything except your "Integrated graphics". I have no idea how to do that on Mac.
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Re: Moho 13 vs 12.5, preview quality loss?

Post by Reindeer » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:53 pm

synthsin75 wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:25 pm
All my tests have the same preview quality in both versions. My next guess would be that 12.5 is using your dedicated graphics card while 13 is using your integrated graphics.

If you're on Windows, you can right-click the Moho shortcuts, chose "Run with graphics processor", and select anything except your "Integrated graphics". I have no idea how to do that on Mac.
I actually am on a Mac and unfortunately I have no idea what that distinction in Graphic cards is (sorry). Maybe I should uninstall Moho 13 altogether and reinstall? Or maybe do away with preferences? I am clueless.
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Re: Moho 13 vs 12.5, preview quality loss?

Post by Reindeer » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:35 pm

Ok I think I've at least isolated the problem. It looks like Moho 13 (or my trial) simply doesn't make use of GPU acceleration.
I tested a high-res image in Moho 12.5, and by toggling GPU acceleration on and off I can distinctly tell the quality boost. Repeating the same task in Moho 13 produces ho difference whatsoever. Also, turning GPU acceleration off in MOho 12.5 for the doodle test I posted at the beginning of this topic results in the same ugly preview I get by default in Moho 13 (regardless whether GPU acceleration is off or on). That looks like sufficient proof.
Moho 13 does, btw, send a warning message that GPU acceleration is "EXPERIMENTAL" and that "IN CERTAIN CASES MAY LEAD TO APPLICATION ANOMALIES". Well... this sure is an anomaly!
So, to make a long story short, it very much looks like a bug. And, incidentally, is also explains why the bitmap brushes look so cheap and, well, pretty unusable. Without knowing it, for days I've been evaluating the whole 13 version in poor preview mode (my problem aside, it's comforting to know this is not v.13 at its best :) ).

Now, how do I get around this? Is this a known Mac-related bug that needs to be addressed by the Team or is it something wrong with my system?
I guess it's worth it to create a ticket with Support (and once fixed, I'll upgrade). :?
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Re: Moho 13 vs 12.5, preview quality loss?

Post by synthsin75 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:05 pm

Not a bug, just trial mode...or not using dedicated graphics on your computer.

Upgrade before claiming you've found a bug.
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Re: Moho 13 vs 12.5, preview quality loss?

Post by Reindeer » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:52 pm

synthsin75 wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:05 pm
Not a bug, just trial mode...or not using dedicated graphics on your computer.

Upgrade before claiming you've found a bug.
Yes, you're right, I guess reporting a bug on the mere basis of the trial wouldn't be fair and maybe wouldn't clear doubts. At least I know that dedicated graphics is working, since Moho 12.5 makes correct use of it.
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Re: Moho 13 vs 12.5, preview quality loss?

Post by Reindeer » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:29 pm

Upgraded, but no improvement. The only thing I can think of doing is reinstalling 13 (although, since there is no uninstaller and I'm not a whiz at searching for hidden files, maybe creating more directories might make the problem even worse!). If I want to use the app resorting to Support might be a good idea now.
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Re: Moho 13 vs 12.5, preview quality loss?

Post by synthsin75 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:59 pm

Mac doesn't have a native way to uninstall apps? That sounds odd.

Did you make sure your computer is using its dedicated graphics for v13? Did you restart your system after the install?
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Re: Moho 13 vs 12.5, preview quality loss?

Post by Reindeer » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:45 am

synthsin75 wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:59 pm
Mac doesn't have a native way to uninstall apps? That sounds odd.

Did you make sure your computer is using its dedicated graphics for v13? Did you restart your system after the install?
Mac's way to uninstall is to chuck apps in the trashcan, but truth is this is usually not seen as a clean solution. I've never figured out, in fact, why there's no system uninstall. :shock:
As for GPU, the Activity Monitor on my Macbook Pro indicates both versions of Moho are using the Dedicated GPU. But the reality of what I see in version 13 is poor quality graphics. The problem persists regardless of whether both versions are open or if I quit 12.5.
I have the feeling there is some overlapping between the two versions on this machine. For example, they share the same keyboard shortcut sets, because on startup if a set is in use in one version, the other will ask you to "update" it. Is that normal? :? Shouldn't they each have their own directories for shortcuts and whatnot? Maybe the installation of v. 13 happened in such a way that they are stepping on each other's feet.
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Re: Moho 13 vs 12.5, preview quality loss?

Post by synthsin75 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:40 am

Reindeer wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:45 am
Mac's way to uninstall is to chuck apps in the trashcan, but truth is this is usually not seen as a clean solution. I've never figured out, in fact, why there's no system uninstall. :shock:
As for GPU, the Activity Monitor on my Macbook Pro indicates both versions of Moho are using the Dedicated GPU. But the reality of what I see in version 13 is poor quality graphics. The problem persists regardless of whether both versions are open or if I quit 12.5.
I have the feeling there is some overlapping between the two versions on this machine. For example, they share the same keyboard shortcut sets, because on startup if a set is in use in one version, the other will ask you to "update" it. Is that normal? :? Shouldn't they each have their own directories for shortcuts and whatnot? Maybe the installation of v. 13 happened in such a way that they are stepping on each other's feet.
I don't know Macs, so you're on your own there. I have no idea if Activity Monitor is reliable for that info or not.

If you assign different keyboard shortcuts to v12 and v13 they won't keep trying to update the same file. Moho looks at the file "version" and cannot share the exact same shortcut file, without continually trying to update it as you move between the two versions. This is why I name my shortcuts by version, so I know which ones go with which version of Moho. They aren't stepping on each other's toes.

They would have separate directories if you wanted v12 and v13 to use completely separate custom content folders.
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Re: Moho 13 vs 12.5, preview quality loss?

Post by Reindeer » Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:17 am

synthsin75 wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:40 am
Reindeer wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:45 am
Mac's way to uninstall is to chuck apps in the trashcan, but truth is this is usually not seen as a clean solution. I've never figured out, in fact, why there's no system uninstall. :shock:
As for GPU, the Activity Monitor on my Macbook Pro indicates both versions of Moho are using the Dedicated GPU. But the reality of what I see in version 13 is poor quality graphics. The problem persists regardless of whether both versions are open or if I quit 12.5.
I have the feeling there is some overlapping between the two versions on this machine. For example, they share the same keyboard shortcut sets, because on startup if a set is in use in one version, the other will ask you to "update" it. Is that normal? :? Shouldn't they each have their own directories for shortcuts and whatnot? Maybe the installation of v. 13 happened in such a way that they are stepping on each other's feet.
I don't know Macs, so you're on your own there. I have no idea if Activity Monitor is reliable for that info or not.

If you assign different keyboard shortcuts to v12 and v13 they won't keep trying to update the same file. Moho looks at the file "version" and cannot share the exact same shortcut file, without continually trying to update it as you move between the two versions. This is why I name my shortcuts by version, so I know which ones go with which version of Moho. They aren't stepping on each other's toes.

They would have separate directories if you wanted v12 and v13 to use completely separate custom content folders.

In fact I did resolve to create separate sets, but it’s good to know the shared shortcut file is normal. Thanks for that info! Gets some doubts out of the way.
Apple Support says that if the app shows up in the gpu column of Activity Monitor, it’s actually using it. That having been said, since the symptom looks in every way like absence of gpu usage, I wonder whether the Monitor is really accurate (I don’t have the knowledge to read the Monitor stats). Just in case, I also unchecked an Energy Saving preference to prevent the computer from switching automatically between high and low power graphic acceleration, but also this to no avail. The search goes on...
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Re: Moho 13 vs 12.5, preview quality loss?

Post by kimandreasjohansson » Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:02 pm

I also experience the same thing. GPU acceleration switched ON in Mac OS does not seem to do any difference to the preview quality. This pretty much makes raster frame by frame animation useless cause the preview distorts the image too much while playing back the animation to actually see your moving animation properly.

I tried this on a 5k imac with a dedicated gpu and a macbook running integrated gpu. On both computers GPU acceleration in MOHO seems to do nothing running MOHO 13, but works fine on both in 12.5.

When running windows 10 on the imac, gpu acceleration works just like it should in MOHO 13 and fixes the preview so that you can actually see what you have drawn while playing back.

I am using the full version so I´ll see if I can submit a bug report of this too, but maybe it´s not considered a real bug now when GPU support (which was one of the marketing perk of previous versions!) is suddenly an experimental feature.

My only fix for this right now is sadly to use MOHO 13 on Windows 10 instead. Hopefully they update this with a fix in coming versions of MOHO.
Visual artist based in Sweden.

imac 5K (2017) 3.4 ghz i5, radeon pro 570, 16 gb ram
macbook pro13 (2014) 2.6 ghz i5, intel iris 8 gb ram
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Re: Moho 13 vs 12.5, preview quality loss?

Post by Reindeer » Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:16 pm

kimandreasjohansson wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:02 pm
I also experience the same thing. GPU acceleration switched ON in Mac OS does not seem to do any difference to the preview quality. This pretty much makes raster frame by frame animation useless cause the preview distorts the image too much while playing back the animation to actually see your moving animation properly.

I tried this on a 5k imac with a dedicated gpu and a macbook running integrated gpu. On both computers GPU acceleration in MOHO seems to do nothing running MOHO 13, but works fine on both in 12.5.

When running windows 10 on the imac, gpu acceleration works just like it should in MOHO 13 and fixes the preview so that you can actually see what you have drawn while playing back.

I am using the full version so I´ll see if I can submit a bug report of this too, but maybe it´s not considered a real bug now when GPU support (which was one of the marketing perk of previous versions!) is suddenly an experimental feature.

My only fix for this right now is sadly to use MOHO 13 on Windows 10 instead. Hopefully they update this with a fix in coming versions of MOHO.

You are experiencing exactly what I am. That "Experimental" looks ominous to me too... :)

Having payed my upgrade, I figure I'm eligible to open a ticket with Support.

In the meantime, here's some more of the problem (sorry for the childish doodle:) ) These are vectors. Compare the character's hair, the cat's eyes and fur, curves and edges and all detail in general... :(

Image

Image Image
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