Is There a Way To Know How Many Pixels Are in Line Width?

[drumlug13]

I'm getting ready to try my first project using imported backgrounds from CSP and I'm already clashing with different line weights/widths. So is there a way to calculate pixels in Moho?

Example: If our project size is 1980 x 1020. How many pixels wide is a line set at 2?

OR.... Is the preferred method to draw with vectors in CSP? I seem to remember seeing a Ytube tutorial about changing vector line width for an entire layer with one click, but I can't find it now. So, with my current lack of knowledge I would have to go back with the vector's correct line too, line by line, which for me would be the same as just redrawing the whole thing. What am I missing?

BTW... It's been too long, my job has taken all of my spare time in recent years. Hope everyone has been well

[Greenlaw]

That's a good question. I was curious so I did some quick tests, and from what I can tell the pixel width of a Stroke is going to be relative to your render resolution.

For example, if you render an image of a 50 pt stroke in a 100 x 100 px frame, that stroke will fill half the image.

Now, change the project size to 200 x 200 px, and it will appear at first that the line has the same thickness...but select the shape and look at the Stroke Width in the Style window and you'll see that Moho has automatically doubled the line width to 100 pt. Set this value back to 50 pt and you'll see that the stroke now fills 25% of the 200 x 200 px frame.

So, I believe you need to set your desired frame size first (for example, 1920 x 1080), and when you set your Stroke size to 2 pt, Moho will render a 2 pt line for that frame size. If you later lower the project size resolution to half size (or 960 x 540 in our example,) Moho will automatically adjust the line width accordingly.

The Stroke's pixel width can be affected by the Line Width tool but this is applied on top of what you set in the Style window. For example, if your stroke has a 10 pt line width, and you use the Line Width tool to increase the width by 200%, the line width will still be set to 10 pt in the Style window but it will display and render at 20 pts.

Now, getting a Moho stroke to match the stroke as rendered in another program is a different matter because, depending on the other program there may be multiple variables that can affect the look of the line: vector vs bitmap, brush style, anti-aliasing quality, etc. The best you can do in this case is to create line samples at different settings in each program, compare the results visually, and take notes.

Hope this helps.

Oh, and I've been fine...thanks for asking! How are you?

[drumlug13]

I'm hanging in there. I knew you would be the first one to answer... The more things change, the more they stay the same : )

I did a test too, (I tried to upload a picture but I can't get Imgur or Dropbox links to work here for some reason) BUT it looks like if you have the project size the same that the line widths selected are really close to exact. I turned off pen pressure in both programs to be as close as possible. It looks like widths 1-5 are a little smaller in CSP but anything over that looks almost exactly the same.

Another question about combining the two programs. I vaguely remember reading someone (I'm thinking it was Slowtiger) talking about how if he was working with a different program to create backgrounds, the he would draw the BG at double the size to achieve the best results for when he would import the artwork into Moho. Am I remembering this wrong or is that the standard practice?

[synthsin75]

It's usual to double background art, so the quality is good enough to zoom into, if needed.

[slowtiger]

Creating BGs in double size is convenient especially when it contains lots of small details, which otherwise are a pain to draw digitally (that's my impression, on paper this is much easier for me, somewhow). However, the main concern should always be the final look in rendered size, with regard to brush strokes, visible bristle detail, and so on. I also do BGs in half size for close-ups, deliberately using some blur on the BG.

(I just had a look at that trailer: https://www.cartoonbrew.com/feature-fil ... 14069.html. Another animated biopic in a deliberately simplified style with straight, even-width lines. In the end there's one of her paintings re-animated: have a look at the brush which comes in at the very end. It's a cartoony hair brush, and of the wrong size ... my father, who paints in oil, would use a much smaller bristle brush. Anyway, this first impression doesn't attract me much, the images are far too empty for my taste: no detail, no textures.)

[drumlug13]

Thanks for the info. It's great to hear from you guys. I'm going to be dealing with some health issues for a few months so I'm looking forward to passing some time by pestering you guys with my usual silly questions. I'm just now starting to dig into M13 so be ready for some doozies

[MrMiracle77]

It seems like there's several tools in Moho where the value is a percentage of the screen size. I'd love to see if this is a percentage of the vertical or horizontal resolution, though, or possibly even the lesser of the two. I think the blob brush and the magnet tool are sized this way.

There is some variation, though. For example, if you shrink a layer with 2 pt outlines, certain tools may adjust proportion to that adjusted layer size.

[slowtiger]

I never found which unit Moho was using for line width, so I adjusted everything just by looks. As some might remember, I create lots of stuff in Moho and TVPaint, constantly importing back and forth. Most reliable way to achieve a certain line width was to render a frame from Moho and import it into TVP, then adjust a brush there. If it looks right, it is right.

(Remember that in larger productions there's different models for different shot sizes, so the same character in a close-up might have a wider outline, and in a wide shot a very thin one, plus omitting out some details.)

[Greenlaw]

...I tried to upload a picture but I can't get Imgur or Dropbox links to work here for some reason...

I don't know about imgur but here's the trick to getting Dropbox to work here: First, copy the link from Dropbox by r-clicking the file and selecting Copy Link. Next, paste the link into your post and change 'dl=0' to 'raw=1'. Finally, select the edited link and click the Insert Image button. This will display the image in the post instead of the download link.

[Greenlaw]

I agree with what the guys wrote about using an extra large image for backdrops. Where I work, I sometimes get backdrops from the art department that are 8k, which may seem insanely huge but this single image can be re-framed to support many shots in a single sequence, and still have enough resolution for final quality rendering.

That said, unless I'm doing a lot of zooming and/or panning in a single shot, I almost never work with the full 8k image because it can be a waste of computer resources. For shots where I need only a small region of the image, I'll cut bit out and import it as a different lighter-weight version of the background.

Optimizing your images when and where you can improve program performance and speed up final quality render times.

[drumlug13]

Ok that worked, thanks Greenlaw

So this was a line test with both CSP and Moho set to 1920 x 1080. I know it looks like chicken scratch. I turned off pen pressure in both. Every width setting was drawn in Moho. And for the examples with 2 lines, the CSP line is on the right. So I can't really see a difference on anything over 10. There's some variations on the lower widths. But at least it looks like, if the project sizes match, the number on the line width setting is going to be close

Obviously working with pen pressure on will change things a lot. So it's always going to be best to use the eye test Like Slowtiger said

[Greenlaw]

Regarding Stroke Width, think of the point number set in the Style Window's Width box as your base line. This number is the 'true' point size of any stroke you create in Moho for the current Project size. Anything you apply outside of the Style Window to change the Stroke width, whether it's scaling a layer/group or using the Width Tool, is a transformation placed on top of the original Stroke width. When you make such changes, check this Width in the Style Widow...it should remain unchanged.

As mentioned, there are a few situations where Moho will adjust the width size in the Styles Window directly; changing the Project size for example. So long as you're aware of these rules, it shouldn't get confusing.

Remember that in larger productions there's different models for different shot sizes, so the same character in a close-up might have a wider outline, and in a wide shot a very thin one, plus omitting out some details.

This is so true. The way I deal with this situation in Moho is to create a custom Style with the stroke width defined but no fill. This allows me to globally change the line width in the project, while leaving fills and colors alone.

I use this trick mainly for characters that need to be scaled very small or very large, and I feel the line weights could use some adjustment for that size. Since the Style is designed to affect only the stroke width, I can change this on any character that uses this style without affecting their skin or outline colors.

[Greenlaw]

...So I can't really see a difference on anything over 10. There's some variations on the lower widths. But at least it looks like, if the project sizes match, the number on the line width setting is going to be close

That's a good test!

Yeah, the visible variations in the thinner line pairs is probably due to different methods of antialiasing between the two programs. Most of the thicker line pairs look identical enough to me too.

[drumlug13]

While we are on the topic....

Say you are working on an 1920 x 1080 canvas, do you have a favorite line weight that you like to start everything off with? Maybe one that reads better? Say the project is like an 80s animation with the classic black cartoon outline

Or, I guess it's better to ask what size canvas you prefer to start things on, and then ask what line weight you like to start with.

[slowtiger]

Hm. Recently I found I'm more comfortable drawing with a broader stroke (see http://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewtop ... =6&t=34899), but years ago I was used to a quite thin line. It always depends on the project and its style. As for sketching or rough animation, just use what you feel comfortable with.

I just finished a job, coloring in 4K in TVP, and it was a real PITA because the line work was close to just 1 px. Very hard to get the right settings for fill, and in the end the whole thing was reduced to 2K anyway, so that was all a waste of time and work. There was a close-up with the same thin line, which I fattened a bit to make it look right.

Remember that many anime apply a blur over all lines, so if you go for that look it's best to run some tests with different line widths and blur settings. Also you get different impressions if the lines are colored, as a rule of thumb the darkest line usually will be the thinnest.