Audio import/export (wav) problem

[bebemustacio]

Hi everyone, I have a problem with audio engine that seems to be easily fixed, but 'not with Moho settings I can find now.
Here is the scenario:

When importing audio into the MOHO project, audio itself is degraded automatically. I’ve checked every preference setting possible in the project and Moho itself, there is simply no way to set the audio quality to be original (uncompressed). Apparently it is the thing of the Moho audio engine.
Audio is lowered in bitrate, sounds like 96kbps MP3 or like Youtube playback quality 360 instead of HD.

The only way that Moho can output regular sounding audio is via Right Click “Export Audio” dropdown menu when clicked on an audio asset in the “Layers” tab - but it is a simple copy of the original audio file - you lose start and end points in the Moho timeline if audio is moved (and it often is), and if you have multiple audio lanes on the timeline, you’re missing also that ability to export the timeline with more than one audio track (in full quality).

It seems like a fairly easy update fix - just set the audio engine to stream in ORIGINAL quality from the hard drive, uncompressed, and voila.
I don’t know does “Import-Audio file” does that also, I’ve only tried “Import-Generic import”, since Import-Audio submenu is greyed out.. but I suppose it is the same.

Setting the export dialog to RAW PCM also doesn’t fix the problem. It is not the matter of the export - rather Import and playback engine of the Moho itself.

Any help with this will help our production a lot.

Thank you

[Maestral]

The issue could be due to the limited scope of acceptable files for import and AAC as an available codec for export.
I'd like to hear if there's a way for adding more codecs and making them available for export rendering. Either just for video or both types of codes.

Usually, when I need a better sound than wav, AAC and similar or if copying the audio in other than the existing format would cause a loss of quality - I'll use a working copy for animation and make the final output in some video editor (just the video export from moho /either ImgSeq or video/ + audio in hq).

If you're already aiming for a better quality of the final output - even festivals are now requesting formats which are not commonly available hence making the final edition in video editor should not be that unusual.

[bebemustacio]

The issue could be due to the limited scope of acceptable files for import and AAC as an available codec for export.
I'd like to hear if there's a way for adding more codecs and making them available for export rendering. Either just for video or both types of codes.

Usually, when I need a better sound than wav, AAC and similar or if copying the audio in other than the existing format would cause a loss of quality - I'll use a working copy for animation and make the final output in some video editor (just the video export from moho /either ImgSeq or video/ + audio in hq).

If you're already aiming for a better quality of the final output - even festivals are now requesting formats which are not commonly available hence making the final edition in video editor should not be that unusual.

Thank you Maestral! Everything you say it's true, but we don't need better sound that wav, just want to have the same 'quality of wav we import. And yes, we make final edit in video editor with img. sequence + wav. but we want to avoid the work that are not necessary ( in this case importing again every sound and adjusted it to lip-sync).

[ggoblin]

Hi Bebemustacio, sorry I didn't understand.

Are you saying that Moho degrades (compresses) the audio upon import, and then uses that degraded copy when exporting irrespective of what export codec you choose? Thats terrible.

I've come across video editors compressing and resizing video on import to help speed up editing, but when exporting the final edited video they resort back to using the original video to maximize quality.

Can anyone confirm this, is it documented? Do we know what the imported audio is compressed by eg 128kbs ?

[Greenlaw]

And yes, we make final edit in video editor with img. sequence + wav. but we want to avoid the work that are not necessary ( in this case importing again every sound and adjusted it to lip-sync).

Before I animate a large multi-scene project with Moho, I create an animatic with the audio track in a video editing program. Then I export each scene and audio track from the editor to use as my reference in Moho. Then when I export each scene from Moho, I simply replace the one in the animatic, and use the original audio already in place. No re-syncing necessary since the audio track and its 'placeholder' scene should already be in sync with the final animated scene. FWIW, this is a typical studio workflow.

Hope this helps.

[bebemustacio]

Are you saying that Moho degrades (compresses) the audio upon import, and then uses that degraded copy when exporting irrespective of what export codec you choose?

Yes, exactly. We checked this on few computers, and we get the same result.
Btw, we use Moho on Windows.

[bebemustacio]

[/quote]

Before I animate a large multi-scene project with Moho, I create an animatic with the audio track in a video editing program. Then I export each scene and audio track from the editor to use as my reference in Moho. Then when I export each scene from Moho, I simply replace the one in the animatic, and use the original audio already in place. No re-syncing necessary since the audio track and its 'placeholder' scene should already be in sync with the final animated scene. FWIW, this is a typical studio workflow.

Hope this helps.
[/quote]

Thank you for your advice. Problem is that we cant make that perfect timing in animatic, there is usually some difference, and also sometimes we change a bit animation of some scenes, and don't want go back to animatic. Also sometimes because of dynamic bones , we don't want to start animation from the first frame, and then we render it form frame 10 or 20. And then it is not the same audio we have in animatic.

So, we really need option to be free to place audio where we want in Moho, and just to get the same quality audio in output. I don't think that is too much to ask for from Moho.

[slowtiger]

Sorry, Moho is not meant to be an audio editor. Sound in Moho is just there for reference. Anything else should be done in a decent video editor, with tools to edit, level, balance, filter, and also has the ability to export sound only in best quality, to further work with that in an adio workstation.

"But I don't want to go back" is a moot point. In professional production you change stuff at any point. Sound from animatic is reference only, everybody knows that, it's not meant to survive. You will fine-tune sync of dialogue (and FX sound) later in the video editor, once you work with finished animation, because there's a lot to be done with offsets.

[bebemustacio]

Sorry, Moho is not meant to be an audio editor. Sound in Moho is just there for reference. Anything else should be done in a decent video editor, with tools to edit, level, balance, filter, and also has the ability to export sound only in best quality, to further work with that in an adio workstation.

"But I don't want to go back" is a moot point. In professional production you change stuff at any point. Sound from animatic is reference only, everybody knows that, it's not meant to survive. You will fine-tune sync of dialogue (and FX sound) later in the video editor, once you work with finished animation, because there's a lot to be done with offsets.

Thank you for your advice.
If you defined sound editing, like changing the sound, then Moho is not sound editor. And we don't need that, and never talked about that.
If you defined it like moving the sound in time. Then yes. Moho is sound editor already. Because we can move the sound.

My question is why should I do the same work twice? I already have synced wav audio with my animation, why I can't get that wav file in export, and save some time in audio editor. And of course, we will make all sound editing, fx... in audio editor, but why I have to sync every sentences for 10 minutes x 26 episodes in sound editor, when I already have that in Moho? Because, everyone use to do that again in sound editor? With that standpoint, we don't need any updates of any software.
I don't need Moho to do any editing of my audio file, just want to get the same audio I import in it ( moved on the right position). Everyone in production know how valuable is the time, especially when you are working with small team and small budget.

I think that every sound designer will appreciate to get wav file synced with the picture, and then do his magic. Maybe it is not a big deal for a big studio, and big budgets.. but for us it is.

[slowtiger]

Your workflow may suffice as long as
- this is the final voice recording
- all treatment of sound has already been done before
- there's no overlapping dialogue.
And yes, with a small budget you might prefer to do it this way. I'm not so sure about shifting dialogue in animation, I was never allowed to do that. This shouldn' happen very often, too, so I think the amount of additional work in editing can't be much.

But I've worked in other projects as well and there
- the dialogue I animated to was only a temp file/layout sound
- dialogue overlapped
- voice recording needs additional treatment.
That's where I come from, it allows for greater flexibility (and oh, how often bigger changes were done late in the project!) and lves the fine tuning of sounds in the hands of people specialized in that.

[Daxel]

Maybe it is not a big deal for a big studio, and big budgets.. but for us it is.

That's the thing. Animations are everywhere nowadays, and Moho is probably the best animation tool for efficiency, small teams and even single person's projects that we often see on Youtube, Tiktok, Instagram, etc. So yeah I think that the proposed feature would be useful for some even if it's probably not a priority, but who knows, maybe it's very easy to implement and they decide it's worth it.

[ggoblin]

I agree with you Daxel, but I wouldn't call it a 'proposed feature'. I think there is a reasonable expectation that when you import a sound file it will not be degraded unless you choose that at export. I would call it a bug, a serious bug.

I have not done any tests so am still not sure what level of degradation we are talking about. But Bebemustacio in this first post mentioned "sounds like 96kbps MP3 or like Youtube playback quality 360" - that sounds very severe. Lets hope its fixed in the next update.

[Greenlaw]

FWIW, the workflow I described is in use at big studios where I've worked but it's also the same workflow I follow for my small 'no budget' personal projects. I don't think budget has anything to do with it, it's just an efficient way to work with dialog for animation, lone artist, small indie teams, or large studio teams.

[bebemustacio]

I agree with you Daxel, but I wouldn't call it a 'proposed feature'. I think there is a reasonable expectation that when you import a sound file it will not be degraded unless you choose that at export. I would call it a bug, a serious bug.

I have not done any tests so am still not sure what level of degradation we are talking about. But Bebemustacio in this first post mentioned "sounds like 96kbps MP3 or like Youtube playback quality 360" - that sounds very severe. Lets hope its fixed in the next update.

You are right, why should any software degrade your original sound, unless you want that.

And here is a bit better explanation.
The exported file from MOHO is WAV, and it is uncompressed.
HOWEVER - the import process already “killed” the quality and made it bit reduced (if you have any decent audio monitoring, pay attention to the high frequencies, it sounds metallic, like a low quality mpeg compression, that's why I said like MP3).
You can export WAV, yes, but it is already degraded, and you are exporting uncompressed audio that is already compressed before - so the file is bigger (filled with empty bits) but the audio quality is already crushed because import dialog (or the moho playback engine) reduced it.

Hope that the difference is more clear now and the scenario itself.

I’ve tried both Mac and PC, both demo and full version - ALWAYS the same result. But, I still can't be 100% sure that somehow that happens just on our computers, so I would love if someone else, experienced in sound editing, confirm if that is a software problem.

And I understand that other studios have different workflow. But for us, having not degraded audio that is already synced with animation, is more efficient for audio editing.

[synthsin75]

Two different things here.

The sound quality of Moho playback has nothing to do with the audio quality. It has much more to do with Moho trying to playback animation and sound as close to real-time as it can. This is going to require things like frame skipping and a lesser audio quality. This isn't about "import," it's about playback.

Now, if you can show that uncompressed WAV imported and exported as uncompressed WAV is degraded, than you may be onto something. Otherwise don't assess your audio quality from playback alone. Typically a larger audio file is a sign of less compression, not more.