Plz Dont call me lazy

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JoelMayer
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Re: Plz Dont call me lazy

Post by JoelMayer »

I dunno about auto rigger but wasn't there like a character wizard or something?

Look, i know this isn't what you want to hear, but no matter what software you're using, when it comes to animation, the computer will never do everything for you. Learning to rig from 0 is pretty complicated so there's no other way imo than to just sit down and start simple like rigging a ball or an arm and then go from there by watching others do it and MORE IMPORTANTLY, do it yourself as much as possible.

I think nowadays there's also an expectation to have a helper tool or a tutorial for every little thing but i think tutorials can only show you the general workflow of things and after that it's really up to you. When you encounter specific problems, you just google them and most of the time you'll find the answer. If that doesn't work there's this forum to resort to.

But if any of this was "easy" then everybody would be doing it ;) I think it also helps to just have a concrete project in mind that you want to do. And when i say project i literally mean start with a loop that you can export as a gif, that will teach you plenty. Then slowly you can upscale.

I learned all this stuff on my own but also with specific projects i had to do at work so i had no other choice than just grind my teeth and get through this thing as smoothly as possible. With time you'll notice that the googling becomes less and you will be more confident. But it just takes time and effort, no script, tutorial or software can take that away completely.

So my advice is just to start small and simple and go from there and not give up, we all had to learn and in my case it took me like 15 years to get where i am now and i'm by no means an amazing animator or rigger but it gets the job done :D
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Greenlaw
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Re: Plz Dont call me lazy

Post by Greenlaw »

If you don't want to spend a lot of time rigging, you can always take an existing rig and just replace the artwork.

The most time consuming part of rigging is probably setting up the Smart Bone Actions. Smart Bone Actions often requires setups that are specific to a character, so using an auto-rigger probably won't help much here. But it's possible to make a great character rig without using any Smart Bones at all. It really depends on your character designs and the style of animation you're going for. At my workplace, I tend to use a lot of Smart Bones in my rigs, but I've also built rigs there that hardly use any Smart Bones.

The second most time consuming part is drawing the character art in Moho, especially if you want vector art that deforms nicely. But if you can't draw in Moho, you can always use photos or hack up some vintage clip art and apply mesh warps to those items. Heck, if you're going for the paper cutout look, you don't even need mesh warps...just Layer Bind the parts directly to the bones. The only limitation is the artist's own creativity.

IMO, the LEAST time consuming part is building the skeleton. Building a basic skeleton in Moho shouldn't take more than a few minutes really. It's just click and drag with the Add Bone, and copy/flip any symmetrical limbs. Of course you need to know where to click and drag and how many bones to create, but that skill comes after a little practice.

For example, here's a basic setup I like use...

Image

I just timed myself in making this skeleton and it took me exactly 3:19 min to create this. And I haven't had my morning coffee yet. If this process took me a lot longer, and I was going to be really smart about it, I'd turn this into a template project and just keep reusing the that for each new character.

The skeleton for a basic face setup isn't much more complicated. I usually have a single face 'mover' bone parented to the head bone, and then all the other face bones (EyeL, EyeR, IrisL, IrisR, EyebrowL, EyeBrowR, Nose, and Mouth,) are parented to that bone. Oh, can't forget the ears...add two more bones, EarL and EarR, to the head bone. Again, this takes only a couple of minutes to create. Like so...

Image

Binding might seem the most mysterious part of rigging since there are so many ways to bind artwork in Moho. If you're a beginner, keep it simple: break your character art down into layered segments and just Layer Bind them to each bone. If you want to go more advanced, you can use Selective Flexibinding, in which case you just select the artwork layers and the bones you want to bind them to, and choose Use Selected Bones for Flexibinding. If you're using vector art, another good option is Point Binding...it's not as 'organic' as Flexibinding but it's very predictable.

A lot of body parts can rely on Switch Layers, and these layers don't really need any rigging at all. Just fill up the Switch Layer with your drawings, and then Layer Bind the Switch Layer to its bone. (i.e., the 'Mouth' Switch Layer to the Mouth bone, 'HandR' Switch to the HandR bone, etc.) You don't need a fancy Smart Bone setup to switch drawings, just use the Switch Selection window.

Of course where gets complicated is in specific character details: Does the character have long hair? A tail? Wings? Are the legs digitigrade, plantigrade, or unguligrade? Does it have jointed or noodle limbs? (With Vitruvian Bones, the character can have both!) How complicated is the clothing? Does it have a lot of flappy and flowing bits? But even here, you can simplify things to use minimal controls, and still have something that looks good. It all depends on your designs and how you intend to animate them.

IMO, an autorigger is only useful if you're willing to restrict yourself to exactly what the autorigger produces. There's nothing wrong with that, especially if you plan you're production around that idea. But one of the most appealing features of Moho is its flexibility, and by relying on an autorigger you may be losing a lot of that flexibility.

I think once you've built a few characters with Moho and get an understanding of which approaches work well and which don't, you really don't need an autorigger to work quickly and predictably. Like anything worth doing, it just takes practice.

My advice to a new Moho user is to keep your rigs simple and actually complete a few projects using the simple rigs. This makes it easier to figure out your personal workflow for getting an animation finished from beginning to end. Once you get the hang of it using simple rigs, then try applying more advanced techniques in your next project. I think you'll find this approach very fulfilling.

Hope this helps.
Last edited by Greenlaw on Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Greenlaw
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Re: Plz Dont call me lazy

Post by Greenlaw »

JoelMayer wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:02 am I dunno about auto rigger but wasn't there like a character wizard or something?
Character Wizard is a bit dated and the rigs it creates are pretty basic...but that said, the CW rigs are worth studying and comparing against some of the more advanced Moho content. Years ago, this actually helped me on one of our shows.

Way back when Harvey Girls Forever was in development, I created the first test animation for the show using Moho. (I may get around to posting that anim someday.) For this particular test I created a semi-advanced rig and the animation worked out great for the pitch. Much later on, we were asked to create an alternative version of the title animation as a test. At the time, I was the only artist on our team that knew how to rig in Moho and I didn't feel I had the time to train our team in Moho rigging, nor did I have the time to build fully turning (360 degrees) advanced rigs for all the characters. So I looked at how Character Wizard did this, and loosely based our HGF rigs on its basic ideas. In our particular situation, this worked out great: The first rig took me about a day or two to create but after that I was able to repurpose the rig to create the rest of the cast in just a couple more days because mainly I was just drawing new artwork. The two differences between our rigs and a genuine Character Wizard rig was that I used a lot of Switch Layer drawings for the hands and feet (the same drawings for every character,) and there were Smart Bone Dials to do separate turns for the main parts (head, body, arms, and legs.) The rigs were still very basic but they got the job done quickly and the animation looked good.

The only issue with this setup was that when switching to a new view, the body parts needed to be posed to pick up where the previous view left off. Not a huge deal but these rigs were a little clunky to animate with compared to other rigs I create with Moho.

Unfortunately, we never fully completed our version of the title animation because the final look of the show's FBF animation (animated by a partner studio) looked too different from out version. For example, we used a lot of thick and thin brush lines while the final show used a constant thin pen line. Luckily, the partner studio also created an FBF version of the title animation, and the show just went with that. (You can see this official version in the link above.)

Even though we didn't finish our test, the experience wasn't a waste though. During the course of that project our team was able to get up to speed with Moho, and some of what I learned from that project was applied successfully to our next show Boss Baby: Back In Business. Maybe more importantly the HGF test also taught me which techniques to avoid for Boss Baby. 😸
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Re: Plz Dont call me lazy

Post by Daxel »

Guys let me thank you big big just to compensate.
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Greenlaw
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Re: Plz Dont call me lazy

Post by Greenlaw »

Sorry, this topic comes up often, and I just wanted to share some of my thoughts about it.

FWIW, I don't think there's an easy around rigging, not if you're going for quality anyway. You can certainly cut corners, but the trade-off is limiting your character designs and animation style. Nothing wrong with that, it's just reality. Remember the Project Triangle:

You can have it good, fast, or cheap, but you can only pick two.

The starter setup I described above may seem basic but for me this setup serves as a 'standard' foundation for building more advanced rigs with the custom features a given character needs. For me, anyway, using the above skeleton does save me time that I can spend on more interesting tasks. I've worked on many TV shows with a wide variety of character types and styles, and the basic system I described earlier has been a good starting point for nearly all of them.

If you're looking for something that's more 'plug-and-play' than Moho, Reallusion's Cartoon Animator Pipeline has a somewhat flexible system built in. It's not really an auto-rigger, it's more of a template based system. Basically, you start with a layered PSD template in which you insert your art in specifically named layers, adjust where the joints go in another layer, and then send the PSD back to Cartoon Animator. The program recognizes the template and uses it to fit a generic rig to the artwork and bind it.

The rig works fine for what's it's designed for but unfortunately, you're pretty much stuck with only what the rig was designed for. There's little you can do to modify and enhance it. Personally, I think CA is a neat program for what it was designed to do, but for me the system is too focused on performance capture and 'mocap' style editing, and not so much for manually keyframing animation. That's not a fault of the program because it's essentially marketed to artists who don't really want to rig or animate.

As mentioned in another thread about 'auto-rigging', it's possible to create a similar workflow in Moho by creating templates for a layered PSD and a Moho project with a 'generic' skeleton. You'll need to do the binding manually but this really doesn't take much time. The 'hard' part is developing a system that specifically serves the character designs and animation style of your particular production. For example, the system I set up for the Harvey test was not ideal but, given the short time schedule it was exactly what it had to be and I was able to knock out a lot of rigged characters quickly.

Rigging may seem tedious (for some anyway,) but a well designed rig pays for itself when you begin animating the character. IMO, this is one area you shouldn't skimp on unless you have to.

Hope this helps.
Last edited by Greenlaw on Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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sang820
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Re: Plz Dont call me lazy

Post by sang820 »

davido wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:13 am :( :x

Am a music producer n i really love the animations style on moho great work guys really nice.

But the rigging is just something else, so like 3d rigging blender n co is there no easy rigging for moho also.

Plus I saw a auto rigger but d link aint working, any script like dat available.

I get stock pile of music work rigging takes a lot if Time n artist these days aren't patient.

Soo any auto rigger script available.

Thanks
:shock: This problem can be solved simply: you collaborate with another Moho modeling artist. You do the music and he does the modeling. I don't think one person can do everything well, especially if you're very demanding about it. :shock:
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slowtiger
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Re: Plz Dont call me lazy

Post by slowtiger »

As a music producer you know how much time (and skills) it takes to create good music. There is no magical machine with a button "create hit track".

So don't expect anything different from animation. If you want to have original visual content, you have to work for it. There is some software available which comes with pre-rigged characters - but then the result will show where it comes from, as nothing is original.
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dueyftw
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Re: Plz Dont call me lazy

Post by dueyftw »

slowtiger wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 12:06 pm As a music producer you know how much time (and skills) it takes to create good music. There is no magical machine with a button "create hit track".

So don't expect anything different from animation. If you want to have original visual content, you have to work for it. There is some software available which comes with pre-rigged characters - but then the result will show where it comes from, as nothing is original.
Sure their is. You hire someone who can write Music then get a band who can read music. With deep enough pockets I can get almost any Music and Animation done. Only problem is I don't have deep pockets. So I'm stuck learning and doing most of it by myself. :(

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Karl Toon
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Re: Plz Dont call me lazy

Post by Karl Toon »

davido wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:13 am :( :x

But the rigging is just something else, so like 3d rigging blender n co is there no easy rigging for moho also.

Plus I saw a auto rigger but d link aint working, any script like dat available.

I get stock pile of music work rigging takes a lot if Time n artist these days aren't patient.
Probably shouldn't say this, but take a look at Reallusions Cartoon Animator 4. It may be more suited to your needs. Alternately, build a rig first then adapt your characters to fit the rig, rather than the other way round.
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slowtiger
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Re: Plz Dont call me lazy

Post by slowtiger »

There are several options to do a minimal rigging with exchangeable assets to create a bunch of characters reasonably fast, but none of them works without knowledge and training. If I start from scratch to build a character just from the waist up, with some head turn poses, mouth shapes, eye movement, arms and some hand poses, all done in bitmap, and rig that in Moho, it takes me roughly a day.
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sang820
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Re: Plz Dont call me lazy

Post by sang820 »

davido wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 11:40 am
sang820 wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:27 am
davido wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:13 am :( :x

Am a music producer n i really love the animations style on moho great work guys really nice.

But the rigging is just something else, so like 3d rigging blender n co is there no easy rigging for moho also.

Plus I saw a auto rigger but d link aint working, any script like dat available.

I get stock pile of music work rigging takes a lot if Time n artist these days aren't patient.

Soo any auto rigger script available.

Thanks
:shock: This problem can be solved simply: you collaborate with another Moho modeling artist. You do the music and he does the modeling. I don't think one person can do everything well, especially if you're very demanding about it. :shock:
How am I demanding?
:shock: I have to admit, finding the right partner is not easy. But it's an important thing and has to be done if you want to make the perfect piece. I will look for artists I like in forums and instant messaging software, and try to connect and collaborate, but usually I need to pay to make a small project first, so as to get to know each other. I did that, good luck to you. :shock:
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