a cat problem

[rocky53204]

Working on a cat.
In order to move the eye pupils I have to go to that layer and select all the points (G) and then move them collectively (T).
Possible but cumbersome.
Thought I could be clever with masked eyes but since I have the entire head in a bone layer I can't figure out how to move the pupils with a bone on the bone layer.
Lots of switch layers in this file but I don't think that is the issue.
Hope I made this clear? File furnished done with MOHO 14 on a Win 11 computer.

File: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Of_sym ... sp=sharing

If someone can verify they are able to download the file that would let me know I stored it correctly with access.

Google drive shows this as two files (?) but when I downloaded (click the arrow pointing down) it arrived as a single MOHO file.
Regards, Rocky

[synthsin75]

The file is asking to request access. You might need to make it publicly available.

[rocky53204]

50/50 chance I got it right this time... try this:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

[rocky53204]

Nope ! let me research this google thing!

[Greenlaw]

I looked at the last link, and it appears to be empty.

Based on your description, though, why don't you just use bones for the pupils?

In my rigs, I just layer bind each eye to an eye bone (eyeL and eyeR, which are parented to a face bone, and that's parented to the head bone. If I need to move both eyes together with one control, I insert a shared eyes parent bone to move both eye bones together.

No nested bone group layers are required to do that. In fact, I strongly recommend against using nested bone groups because they're a pain in the butt to animate with. It's so much easier to do everything inside one bone layer at the top of the rig. With fewer places holding keyframes, the timeline remains cleaner and easier to manage.

If the issue is that the face is getting cluttered with too many bones, try using a constraint to 'remote control' the bones outside of the head. I do this for most of my characters...it's a lot cleaner, plus it solves the problem of repositioned eye bones when you change drawings in a head turn: just constrain the second set of bones to the same remote control bones. After constraining the eye bones in each view, use Shy Bone to hide them. (Be sure to use Shy, and not Hide. Shy is easier to manage for later editing.) To see a simple example of this setup, check out the Gorilla rig that comes with Moho. Search for 'Gorilla' in the Library window.

Hope this helps.

[rocky53204]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Of_sym ... sp=sharing

tested on another machine

[rocky53204]

I'm not seeing any shy bones in the gorilla.
I don't think it similar to the cat.
More confused than ever.
I would delete the bad link messages if I could figure out how to do that...
At any rate the cat should download using the last link... sorry for the confusion with the multiple links.
Regards, Rocky

[synthsin75]

Link works now.

Since you have so many nested layers, between the bone layer and the pupils layer, you'll need to make sure none of the grouping layers in between are bound to a bone. This will allow bone influence to reach your pupils layer. You'll just have to layer bind all the individual layers, instead of the group layers. Easy enough to shift/ctrl-select layers and bind them all at once to the head bone.

Then you can make a pin bone off the head bone, and bind that to your pupils.

[Greenlaw]

I'm not seeing any shy bones in the gorilla.

You need to un-shy the bones to see them. Use the Hide/Show Shy Bones command. That will reveal this...



This is used to keep the face region uncluttered by too many bones and to prevent animating the eye bones directly.

I like using Shy because it's easy to hide/show a subset of bones...the command remembers which bones have the Shy property applied, and lets me toggle them on and off. This is useful when I need to edit the rig later, especially during animation.

As for the constraints, the Gorilla setup is simple, but I can use additional constraints like rotate and scale on the same bone. I like this method because is allows me to constrain alternate sets of bones with an offset, like eye bones in a head turn. Since the control bones are themselves already offset, the location of any of the actual eye bones doesn't matter. This also works for rotation and scaling...transform the control bone and all of the constrained bones will follow.

I'll look at your file tonight, but in my experience, placing keyframes in as few layers as possible is key to animating quickly in Moho. For example, almost all of the Moho work in my demo reels has keys in only the single bones layer at the top of the rig.

There is one big exception in my more recent animations: Ever since I started using the Switch Selection window (maybe two or three years now,) I stopped using Smart Bones to animate Switches, so these keys show up in the Switch layer channel now. However, I usually have timeline visibility set for this layer, so it's easy to find.

(Tip: Check out Lukas' new LayerFinder window...this makes it easy to find any layer with keys.)

Hope this helps.

[rocky53204]

I'll give that a try... thanks!

[Greenlaw]

Looking at the cat now...it's very cute!

A few thoughts and tips:

Yeah, if I were rigging this, I'd put the eye bones in the top Bones layer. It will be much easier to animate and keep track of. Using the remote bones will also simplify animating the head turn drawings because the offset in the eye bones will automatically match between the drawings. For example, if the character is looking up i the front drawing, it will still be looking up when you switch to the side drawing.

You might want to extend the root bone. Right now, it's hard to grab it for positioning and animation. If the bone is a little longer, it should be easier to grab the handle.

The hand IK goal setup is interesting, but I think it will be harder to animate with than a simple FK setup. IMO, to control the rotation, I think it's easier to use the independent Angle constraint. (A must for the feet!)

I'll make an example tonight. I don't see any reason not to keep it simple.

[rocky53204]

Yep... I think I violated a KISS (keep it stupid simple) guideline.
Quite interested in your alternate version.

[rocky53204]

By changing the 'head face forward' layer to a bone layer...
and then creating a pin bone on that layer...
and then binding all of the points on the 'eye-iris, pupil, high light' layer to that pin bone...
I am able to move the eyeballs on that layer with the pin bone but not on the master bones layer.

Nevertheless it is a workaround that should be more usable for me.

[Hoptoad]

By changing the 'head face forward' layer to a bone layer...
and then creating a pin bone on that layer...
and then binding all of the points on the 'eye-iris, pupil, high light' layer to that pin bone...
I am able to move the eyeballs on that layer with the pin bone but not on the master bones layer.

Nevertheless it is a workaround that should be more usable for me.

What you described is actually how to build an "advanced" bone rig, so it's not actually a work-around. That process is actually how it's done.

To be clear:

The numerous layers for the body (arms, legs, shoes, etc.) are collected within a Bone group. The head is not within this group. The various layers for the head (eyebrows, hair, etc.) are collected within the a separate bone group. If you have multiple heads (head facing forward, head facing left, head facing right, etc.), each head gets its own Bone group, and all the heads are collected within a Switch group to make it easier to switch between the heads while animating. Then, lastly, all those parts are gathered into a plain Group layer (called "Cat" or whatever), to make it easier to Import the entire character into a scene, and to layer-scale the entire character (the body and all the heads) at the same time.

When animating, you select the body Bone group and move the body bones, then you select the Bone group for the head and move the head bones. At least that's how I've been doing it!

A "simple" bone rig, in comparison, has one head within the same bone group as the body, and one skeleton that controls everything.

[rocky53204]

A somewhat improved version?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ANmElu ... sp=sharing
(Oh yeah this link works the first time!)

Activate (pick/click) the 'head direction' choice (forward or sideways) then activate your selection.
(Either 'head face sideways' or 'head face forward')
With that layer selected you should be able to manipulate the pin bones controlling the lids or eyes.