Adding/Removing layers breaks current order.

rylleman · Post by **rylleman** » Thu May 14, 2009 9:34 am

Whenever adding or removing an new layer the current layer order breaks and the layers gets rearranged.

This is often a huge problem, you have to manually rearrange the layers into desired order every time after adding or removing layers. With more complex rigs it can be quite a task getting it right.
And if you have animated the layer order you end up having to rearrange the layers at every key.

I would like an option to not use animatable layer order at all since I find it overall very wobbly.

TheChewanater · Post by **TheChewanater** » Thu May 14, 2009 8:57 pm

That happens to me too.

Post by **Víctor Paredes** » Thu May 14, 2009 9:33 pm

same here.

madrobot · Post by **madrobot** » Thu May 14, 2009 10:27 pm

That's a good idea, an on/off switch for layer order animation

synthsin75 · Post by **synthsin75** » Thu May 14, 2009 11:16 pm

Yeah, this is a problem of layer ordering using internal layer IDs. Layer IDs are updated according to how many there are and where. On/off? Just delete the layer order keys and quit using it.

Really this is only a problem if you don't plan well enough. You just have to not add/remove layers after ordering. Overall I follow Vern's work flow. Complete the animation first, and then go back through to do layer ordering.

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Thu May 14, 2009 11:26 pm

There is a sort of small workaround for this but not a great one. It only deals with new layers and does not solve the problem of reordering on frame 0.

Only create new layers on frame 0 and ALWAYS create them at the TOP of the group layer list. If you duplicate a layer drag it up to the top on frame 0 before continuing.

Now if that new layer needs to be in a different spot in the order change it's order on say... frame 1 first so you start off the way you want. By doing this you won't mess up the order on later frames.

New layers, when added in the "middle" of the layer order on frame 0 will displace layers below it. The last layer in the layer list is not in the list anymore. Layers above that new layer are not effected.

The main key to layer order animation is to NEVER change the order on frame 0 AFTER you have animated layer order. This also means all NEW layers must be at the top of the list on frame 0 so as to not disturb the layer order below it.

-vern

rylleman · Post by **rylleman** » Fri May 15, 2009 8:44 am

synthsin75, great that you always plan ahead and knows which layers you are going to finally have in your scenes. Congratulations.

heyvern, it might be workaround to be careful to always create new layers on top in the groups. But you have to step very careful with your tongue in the middle of your mouth.

Bottom thing is that the whole layer order thing is very shaky and not really suited for production. You should be able to add layers without being worried about it royally messing up your scenes.

[edited; washed my mouth with soap]

Genete · Post by **Genete** » Fri May 15, 2009 10:37 am

Bottom thing is that the whole layer order thing is very shaky and not really suited for production. You should be able to add layers without being worried about it fucking up your scenes.

When the layers positions were absolute in z depth (before the new feature) the problem of fuck a shape order was minor issue. New layers have a Z of zero and will be in the middle of the stack all the time. The previous Z depth movements continue being correct. Opposite to that, it was more difficult to set up a layer movement in Z because the 3D camera change its size when the Z movement is very big. So you had to plan the tiny Z increments for the number of layers you have.

There is not a perfect solution that satisfies all the users. I ask, it is possible to still using the old method? what happen if you use both at the same time? would one override other?

-G

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Fri May 15, 2009 3:13 pm

By the way Genete you CAN turn off the 3D camera and not worry about z depth shifting of the layers. I thought the same thing you did when I was using that technique.

So this means you can use any value you want and it makes no difference. The layers don't shift but still flip their order.

-----

rylleman,

As for "working carefully" or finding alternate solutions... I have no problem with "planning ahead" or "creating new layers on top". If you don't want to do it that's fine by me. If the feature is too shaky for you don't use it. If there are "steps" to follow to make something work and you don't want to follow the steps or don't like them... uh... well... I'm just trying to help. It works for me. IT'S NOT PERFECT AND SHOULD BE FIXED... but it's not a "deal breaker".

I only suggested that workaround as a partial solution while we wait for a possible better solution. I'm hoping for script access to layer order... then I won't have to EVER reorder layers "by hand". Leave it the way it is and I will just script it. I was scripting z depth layer sorting but it was a pain in the arse. Scripting layer order would be much easier. Lots of options.

I like the layer order feature. Yeah it's got some rough edges but MAN it saves a lot of time. The ONLY OTHER OPTIONS were the z depth trick or using MULTIPLE LAYERS AND VISIBILITY.

z depth ordering is... not... user friendly... you can't "drag" a layer.. you have to think too much and type in numbers. Multiple copies of layers and keying visibility... well... I'm never going to do THAT again.

Animated layer order is better than those options... it's not perfect but it's better and a good first step in the right direction.

-vern