The other thread was getting rather long in the... er... thread, so I took the liberty of starting a fresh one. Maybe you can put your fresh batch of questions here, because the rants against how the introduction was handled has now been beaten to death.
I think the complaints so far have been pretty unprofessional, particularly because they are about style, and not substance. I will say that I feel very sympathetic to users who are chafed by the cost of an upgrade, but some of these complaints are coming from some very smart animators who are capable of earning back the capital investment quickly from an improved application.
$150 - $200 for a world-class animation application? If you realize your dreams using AS, I don't understand the problem. EITHER you believe that the application does for you what no other app does, OR you think $200 (or whatever it is) is too much. But you can't have it both ways!
Which leaves us to the dummy brigade, and that's where I come in. As the forum's token dummy, I want to turn the dialogue to a matter of substance: namely, usability. I've used scores and scores and scores of applications since the days of the VIC 20 (anybody remember that?), and I have to say that I have never come across an application that violates user-interface expectations as severely and routinely as Anime Studio 5.
Ultimately, as I have said elsewhere, the problem is that AS 5 breaks the fundamental feedback loop between user controls and the application state. As a result, the user has to constantly apologize for the app in his head, resorting to workaround after workaround after workaround. The classic instance of this is when you select an object, its color and fill do not show in the Styles box. I use a LOT of other applications. Not a single one of them would have the impertinence to act that way.
That's just one example. If I wanted to take a week off, I could compile a list of similar. Having Vern as a beta tester doesn't make me feel easy about that. He has the mental flexibility to juggle an unlimited number of workarounds in order to achieve his goals, and he doesn't give squat about compliance with user-interface guidelines.
So where do we stand?
New in Anime Studio 6
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
Sorry -- your complaint falls on deaf ears here (I guess much as mine in the other thread felt to yours). I *like* the interface in AS -- it's intuitive and easy to use to me (unlike ToonBoom, which constantly confuses me).
I well remember the debate on the compose forums of Finale versus Silibeus (really the only two professional scoring programs out there). Some liked one interface, some the other, but it was really a matter of preference. AS is much the same way -- it does NOT break the rules of Windows in any significant way that I can see.
The real bottom line is if you want a different interface then get a different program -- version 6 of a program is not a time to change interfaces (in mid stream, as it were).
I well remember the debate on the compose forums of Finale versus Silibeus (really the only two professional scoring programs out there). Some liked one interface, some the other, but it was really a matter of preference. AS is much the same way -- it does NOT break the rules of Windows in any significant way that I can see.
The real bottom line is if you want a different interface then get a different program -- version 6 of a program is not a time to change interfaces (in mid stream, as it were).
I don't want to dismiss people's concerns about process out of hand, either.
My take on it is that there must be between 12-20 people on this forum who have effectively acted like Smith Micro product specialists and support reps, and even as product developers, in every respect except for pay and benefits.
I am not being sentimental here. I am being objective. Just imagine the cumulative hours of effort by the pros answering people's questions, evangelizing the product, and making AS do the unthinkable. (No, not THAT unthinkable!)
Now, some of these folks are finding it hard to pay for an upgrade. It strikes me as just good business sense to giftwrap a copy of ASPro 6, complete with a box of Godiva chocolates, and mail it to them with humble thanks.
Heck, you've got everyone's registered addresses.
Or, if you are afraid of summer temperatures, mail them cookies instead of chocolate!
My take on it is that there must be between 12-20 people on this forum who have effectively acted like Smith Micro product specialists and support reps, and even as product developers, in every respect except for pay and benefits.
I am not being sentimental here. I am being objective. Just imagine the cumulative hours of effort by the pros answering people's questions, evangelizing the product, and making AS do the unthinkable. (No, not THAT unthinkable!)
Now, some of these folks are finding it hard to pay for an upgrade. It strikes me as just good business sense to giftwrap a copy of ASPro 6, complete with a box of Godiva chocolates, and mail it to them with humble thanks.
Heck, you've got everyone's registered addresses.
Or, if you are afraid of summer temperatures, mail them cookies instead of chocolate!
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synthsin75
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Yeah, I can't say I understand the gripe about upgrade pricing. I would have ulcers on my ulcers if my money were so tight. But I know I'm a special case. I live like I'm poor so that I have enough money not to worry about it.
I do agree that SM should try to capitalize on the advertisement they have on this forum. Sponsor a contest or two, ask people here to write reviews, tutorials, etc. Host our scripts! Some of these would cost little or nothing compared to the ad value.
I really don't think they know we exist.
I do agree that SM should try to capitalize on the advertisement they have on this forum. Sponsor a contest or two, ask people here to write reviews, tutorials, etc. Host our scripts! Some of these would cost little or nothing compared to the ad value.
I really don't think they know we exist.
i have no problem with worrying about a company or how it markets, even how it is priced. I mean, hell, I almost bought AS for $50 and then found out i can get it for $20... Either way, it was absolutely by far the best $20 I think I have EVER spent in my life.
and it looks like the upgrade from reg to debut is another twenty... i'll go for that! and when I have extra cash, of COURSE i will get pro. i mean, guys... it is a tool and is a VERY beautiful one.
Either way, carry on... Not sure about you all, but I will just keep working on my cartoon project. Then when it comes out, I will find enough money to get my upgrade.
Sheez.
RonC
and it looks like the upgrade from reg to debut is another twenty... i'll go for that! and when I have extra cash, of COURSE i will get pro. i mean, guys... it is a tool and is a VERY beautiful one.
Either way, carry on... Not sure about you all, but I will just keep working on my cartoon project. Then when it comes out, I will find enough money to get my upgrade.
Sheez.
RonC
Anime Studio, Xara Xtreme 4, Magix Movie Edit Pro 11, Papagayo, Ableton Live 8, Artrage Deluxe
Actually, Human, there would have been an even better way to "reward" those folks here who have taken on the job of support -- allow them to beta test. It's both logical and fair and usual industry practice. You can still charge them (or not) for the final release copy and feel you've done right by them AS WELL as given them a heads up on the issues they will need to know in order to continue that support process.
For all I know this may have happened... except it certainly didn't happen to me or a few of my friends on the forum (and a couple of those were at least in my mind logical choices). When you get left out you tend to be more critical of the process so I may not be very objective here because I think I fit into that category you mention (maybe not as much as some, but more than others).
But for me the "reward" is not beta -- that's a laborious process if done correctly (I know -- I've been on the beta for at least two very high end products). The reward is making sure you get your two cents in as to how a certain feature should work (not the feature itself -- that's set in alpha). It's a subtle distinction and not everyone will appreciate it, but I can use some high end programs today and know that certain things work the way they do because of my input and I'm glad because I don't have to think about it too much <g>.
In any case, SM doesn't really owe anyone here (with the exception of Vern) a free copy of anything. I still think they owed us more of a heads up about things, and I still think that speaks to character but I won't go there again. Doesn't matter what I think anyway (pretty obviously :>).
But I do think the pricing is pretty extreme in relationship to the cost of the product. Once again -- it's not the price per se but the cost of the entire product. Paying 70% of what the product costs for an upgrade is not a way to keep your customers, no matter how wonderful those upgrades are (personally I would pay around $500 for AS -- priced like that an upgrade price would STILL be only around $100, or 20%) With this pricing scheme there is no doubt in my mind we are going to end up with a whole lot of users here with two completely different products (and think of the support issues this forum will see then -- hope Mike is planning on spending LOTS of time here from now on).
For all I know this may have happened... except it certainly didn't happen to me or a few of my friends on the forum (and a couple of those were at least in my mind logical choices). When you get left out you tend to be more critical of the process so I may not be very objective here because I think I fit into that category you mention (maybe not as much as some, but more than others).
But for me the "reward" is not beta -- that's a laborious process if done correctly (I know -- I've been on the beta for at least two very high end products). The reward is making sure you get your two cents in as to how a certain feature should work (not the feature itself -- that's set in alpha). It's a subtle distinction and not everyone will appreciate it, but I can use some high end programs today and know that certain things work the way they do because of my input and I'm glad because I don't have to think about it too much <g>.
In any case, SM doesn't really owe anyone here (with the exception of Vern) a free copy of anything. I still think they owed us more of a heads up about things, and I still think that speaks to character but I won't go there again. Doesn't matter what I think anyway (pretty obviously :>).
But I do think the pricing is pretty extreme in relationship to the cost of the product. Once again -- it's not the price per se but the cost of the entire product. Paying 70% of what the product costs for an upgrade is not a way to keep your customers, no matter how wonderful those upgrades are (personally I would pay around $500 for AS -- priced like that an upgrade price would STILL be only around $100, or 20%) With this pricing scheme there is no doubt in my mind we are going to end up with a whole lot of users here with two completely different products (and think of the support issues this forum will see then -- hope Mike is planning on spending LOTS of time here from now on).
I don't get it. Every application I use has "quirks" that don't follow every expected UI guideline. If the program does that AND it sucks lemons it gets deleted. If a program is FANTASTIC I learn how to use it regardless of "guidelines". I have used programs that follow every single UI guideline and it sucks lemons and I don't use it.Having Vern as a beta tester doesn't make me feel easy about that. He has the mental flexibility to juggle an unlimited number of workarounds in order to achieve his goals, and he doesn't give squat about compliance with user-interface guidelines.
Good grief! Guidelines? I use a Mac and a PC all day. I switch back and forth constantly with the same keyboard and monitor. I always use the wrong dang keys for copy and paste. I use the wrong dang keys for opening tabs in Firefox and closing windows. Drives me NUTS! Where are the guidelines in that case? Those problems make any UI issues with AS trivial. The only good thing is the application switch is identical for Mac and XP. That flips me out. Who stole what from whom?
Finding workarounds is the foundation of all things creative. Art itself is one gigantic humongous series of constant workarounds. Nothing would get done if you only did what was easy and right there in front of you with the click of a mouse.
Yes, AS does not follow the strict UI guidelines. I remember how frustrating that USE to be for me. But by continuing to use it I learned to adjust to it...
... Just like I am learning to use CTRL+C to copy things on the PC instead of CMD+C as I've done on the Mac for 20 years. I still get confused about 4 or 5 times a day. My brain gets locked up and I freeze... staring at the key board drooling.
-----
On a side note. I made every effort possible to cover the issues from the forum while beta testing. I often would read something here, test it out in the beta, and then report it. As much as possible I tried to be the forum "spokesperson".
Beta testing is FREAKING HARD WORK MAN! As mkelly said. It is not some magical access to a "free" update. You can't sit around working on your own stuff you have to push every button.... many times.... try as many things as you can over and over. After a while the novelty of using this "new version" wears off and you DO start being more critical.
I did my best. I tried not to "make excuses". But at the point of beta testing many things were locked in stone. I am happy that I was able to get a couple of things "fixed" that might not have been addressed if I wasn't so "pushy" about it.
By the way... I wasn't the only one testing... uh... I just want to point that out. It's not like Mike and I were having intimate dinner dates debating how this or that feature should work. I was just one little tiny wheel in the machine... but I tried to squeak as loud as possible.
-vern
human makes a very important point here: how much has the behaviour of the programm improved? As you know, this was one of my main complaints and still is, even if I can recall the secret handshake of bone binding or whatever from memory when drunk long after midnight now.
It is no excuse that other software is even more complicated to use (TVPaint holds my personal record in some parts). Just count the questions which pop up the most often here: they're all about a feature which only works when following a complicated set of actions. They're not about any feature missing.
The use of every program should be as simple as possible, that's the only rule to follow.
(And of course it must not crash. AS 5.6 is as stable as can get on my PPC Mac. I pray this hasn't changed in 6.)
It is no excuse that other software is even more complicated to use (TVPaint holds my personal record in some parts). Just count the questions which pop up the most often here: they're all about a feature which only works when following a complicated set of actions. They're not about any feature missing.
The use of every program should be as simple as possible, that's the only rule to follow.
(And of course it must not crash. AS 5.6 is as stable as can get on my PPC Mac. I pray this hasn't changed in 6.)
Vern,heyvern wrote:
Beta testing is FREAKING HARD WORK MAN! As mkelly said. It is not some magical access to a "free" update. You can't sit around working on your own stuff you have to push every button.... many times.... try as many things as you can over and over. After a while the novelty of using this "new version" wears off and you DO start being more critical.
By the way... I wasn't the only one testing... uh... I just want to point that out. It's not like Mike and I were having intimate dinner dates debating how this or that feature should work. I was just one little tiny wheel in the machine... but I tried to squeak as loud as possible.
-vern
From what Wes has already told me I am VERY concerned the beta was far too small AND too short. Forget for a moment that the two or three folks I would have picked for a beta weren't -- I'll stipulate that Mike knew an additional 20 or so folks who just never post here and but are such dedicated AS users they knew the program as well as those of us who do frequent the forum (maybe it's even a better indicator -- they are so busy using AS in their professional lives they don't have TIME to appear on this forum. Although I use AS for six hours or more a day five days a week and still seem to have time, but not everyone is comfortable on a forum, although folks who write here frequently are the kind of communicators you need in a beta :>).
If Mike didn't have at least 20 real hard-core beta testers then a program like AS was tested far too little. Perhaps he was basing his experience on past Moho releases, but it sounds to me that major major things were added and you can't expect a stable program to emerge without folks hammering on it from all angles. I know -- I betaed for both Adobe and Discreet, and the cycles were brutal (it actually caused me to shut down production on a film for one time but I felt my commitment to the beta came first). And the length of time REALLY worries me -- my hunch was we weren't going to see AS 6 until the end of this year.
Ah well, I won't write any more here. It's just depressing the heck out of me. I'm going to go off and take my meds and pretend that AS 6 Pro is bug free and contains file and library management and full script access and that there's no way someone like Wes could have found any more bugs in any more time and the only reason the version he bought is so unstable was that it was, as it shall ever be known as, the "Wal-Mart" release. I'm glad you were on the team, Vern, and thanks for all the work you did for all of us.
This is what I think...
I have read lots of the posts and believe that many artists feel that relying mostly on scripters for doing the beta test was not the best way to do it.
But I guess the big picture here is: the new version of ASP goes far beyond the previous one, regarding scripting.
And why is this iportant to artists? Because this empowers the scripters to go out there and do whatever can be done.
If I read it right - and Vern, please, correct me if I am wrong - ALL the tools are now written in Lua.
This is absolutely amazing news.
Think about it for a while: SM is releasing a very powerfull application, while allowing the community to create on top of it.
So, in other words, anything can be done in Lua now - amazing!, everything that comes in the box is now done in Lua!
For the non-scripters this means now the scripting gurus here (Vern, Genete, Synth, MKeley - sorry for not mentioning others, but these are the ones that helped me when I asked stupid questions), will be able to help even more than they used to.
I am really excited about this. It is like watching the birth of Linux, in a sense.
Despite not being an open-source application, per se, it looks like people will be creating lots of incredible stuff for it.
This may have made the artists (as in 'non-scripters'
) unhappy, but I bet we all are going to collect the rewards of this.
People will soon be creating tools and plugins for ASP that would never be possible the way it was.
Trust me... there is a road fulll of wonders ahead of us.
And, Mike, thanks dude.
Also, be aware that ASP is more than an application, it is kind of a religion, it is kind of a Mac. So, there will always be passion in this forum.
(It is like the creature is now much bigger thn its creator).
Regading price, I would gladly pay US$ 600,00 for the new version, for that is what my right-price-o-meter tells me it is worth.
Ok, charging 70% of the new price for an updte sounds silly, but you know what? I feel good about it, because it is like I m supporting SM, Mike and this community.
Let me put it this way: Ask not wht Mike and SM can do for you... ask what you can do for Mike and SM.
I am ALL IN.
Cheers,
Rui
I have read lots of the posts and believe that many artists feel that relying mostly on scripters for doing the beta test was not the best way to do it.
But I guess the big picture here is: the new version of ASP goes far beyond the previous one, regarding scripting.
And why is this iportant to artists? Because this empowers the scripters to go out there and do whatever can be done.
If I read it right - and Vern, please, correct me if I am wrong - ALL the tools are now written in Lua.
This is absolutely amazing news.
Think about it for a while: SM is releasing a very powerfull application, while allowing the community to create on top of it.
So, in other words, anything can be done in Lua now - amazing!, everything that comes in the box is now done in Lua!
For the non-scripters this means now the scripting gurus here (Vern, Genete, Synth, MKeley - sorry for not mentioning others, but these are the ones that helped me when I asked stupid questions), will be able to help even more than they used to.
I am really excited about this. It is like watching the birth of Linux, in a sense.
Despite not being an open-source application, per se, it looks like people will be creating lots of incredible stuff for it.
This may have made the artists (as in 'non-scripters'
) unhappy, but I bet we all are going to collect the rewards of this.People will soon be creating tools and plugins for ASP that would never be possible the way it was.
Trust me... there is a road fulll of wonders ahead of us.
And, Mike, thanks dude.
Also, be aware that ASP is more than an application, it is kind of a religion, it is kind of a Mac. So, there will always be passion in this forum.
(It is like the creature is now much bigger thn its creator).
Regading price, I would gladly pay US$ 600,00 for the new version, for that is what my right-price-o-meter tells me it is worth.
Ok, charging 70% of the new price for an updte sounds silly, but you know what? I feel good about it, because it is like I m supporting SM, Mike and this community.
Let me put it this way: Ask not wht Mike and SM can do for you... ask what you can do for Mike and SM.
I am ALL IN.
Cheers,
Rui
Rui,
I actually tend to agree with you about price -- $500 sounds about right to me (but that was true even before 6). In some ways I wish SM would raise the base price to this, because then $130 for an upgrade doesn't sound bad at all.
So perhaps I should look at it as a really terrific introductory price for those who don't own AS at all, and not so much of a penalty for existing users. And to be fair, I think Mike should have charged for 5.6 (just the layer ordering would have been worth $20 or $30).
I am anxious to get back to scripting and hope to give you lots of new tools -- I already have some more ideas for color stuff that is unlikely to be available.
I actually tend to agree with you about price -- $500 sounds about right to me (but that was true even before 6). In some ways I wish SM would raise the base price to this, because then $130 for an upgrade doesn't sound bad at all.
So perhaps I should look at it as a really terrific introductory price for those who don't own AS at all, and not so much of a penalty for existing users. And to be fair, I think Mike should have charged for 5.6 (just the layer ordering would have been worth $20 or $30).
I am anxious to get back to scripting and hope to give you lots of new tools -- I already have some more ideas for color stuff that is unlikely to be available.
Hey MKelley.
I am really ecited about this new version.
And I am relly looking forwad to seeing wht you, vern, genete, synth75 and going to create.
I have been watching AS for quite soe timenow - a couple of years.
have downloaded the deos before, but bought AS just a coupe of months ago.
And I bought Pro the other day, or a couple of days later.
I fell that I jumped in just in time to help support a nw wave of support, backd by the scripters, which willcatpult the tool to the top and beyond.
These are exciting times
Cheers,
Rui
I am really ecited about this new version.
And I am relly looking forwad to seeing wht you, vern, genete, synth75 and going to create.
I have been watching AS for quite soe timenow - a couple of years.
have downloaded the deos before, but bought AS just a coupe of months ago.
And I bought Pro the other day, or a couple of days later.
I fell that I jumped in just in time to help support a nw wave of support, backd by the scripters, which willcatpult the tool to the top and beyond.
These are exciting times
Cheers,
Rui
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Lost Marble
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About the workarounds and non-standard ways of doing things: I'd just like to make two points about this.
First, in version 6 we've tried to streamline and improve a lot of little things. Hopefully these will add up to making the program smoother and easier to use. One example is this (these aren't big features you'd put on a product box): Anime Studio used to have a notion of the "current fill color". When you created a new shape, it would be filled with the current fill color. Now this wasn't necessarily what you would see in the Style palette. Depending on what was currently selected, the Style palette might show something completely different from the current fill color.
In version 6, this has changed. There is no "current fill color" as a separate object. When you create a new shape, whatever you see in the Style palette is what will be applied to that new shape.
This is the kind of thing we're not really going to talk about much (except right now). It's not flashy, but it will hopefully make the program easier to use and more friendly to new users. Existing users may not actually notice the difference unless they think about it, but hopefully "something" will feel smoother in their workflow.
My second point is about standard interfaces and workflows. Just so you know where I'm coming from, I'm not necessarily a big fan of standard ways of doing things. As an example, I've always hated the way Illustrator and other vector apps work, so when you see differences in Anime Studio, they're intentional. It's up to you if that works for you or not.
If there are some ways that we break standard workflows in really unhelpful ways that don't bring any benefit, let us know.
-Mike
First, in version 6 we've tried to streamline and improve a lot of little things. Hopefully these will add up to making the program smoother and easier to use. One example is this (these aren't big features you'd put on a product box): Anime Studio used to have a notion of the "current fill color". When you created a new shape, it would be filled with the current fill color. Now this wasn't necessarily what you would see in the Style palette. Depending on what was currently selected, the Style palette might show something completely different from the current fill color.
In version 6, this has changed. There is no "current fill color" as a separate object. When you create a new shape, whatever you see in the Style palette is what will be applied to that new shape.
This is the kind of thing we're not really going to talk about much (except right now). It's not flashy, but it will hopefully make the program easier to use and more friendly to new users. Existing users may not actually notice the difference unless they think about it, but hopefully "something" will feel smoother in their workflow.
My second point is about standard interfaces and workflows. Just so you know where I'm coming from, I'm not necessarily a big fan of standard ways of doing things. As an example, I've always hated the way Illustrator and other vector apps work, so when you see differences in Anime Studio, they're intentional. It's up to you if that works for you or not.
If there are some ways that we break standard workflows in really unhelpful ways that don't bring any benefit, let us know.
-Mike
What really really will be an improvement on workflow is the ability to select any shape without need to previously select the layer, just a single click on the canvas and the most top shape (whatever the layer it belongs to) is selected. It would avoid mouse movements to the layer list and the workflow would increase enormously.
-G
-G