Where is the 13.0 frame-by-frame return we were promised?

[Lychee]

Hi.

It's been a while since I expressed myself on the forum and I stopped using Moho for other passions (composing music...).
But I'm slowly getting back into the game, and I'm surprised that there isn't a new version of the program, especially with an option that we were promised to bring back from version 13.0, frame by frame in bitmap.

[chucky]

Hi.

It's been a while since I expressed myself on the forum and I stopped using Moho for other passions (composing music...).
But I'm slowly getting back into the game, and I'm surprised that there isn't a new version of the program, especially with an option that we were promised to bring back from version 13.0, frame by frame in bitmap.

I don't remember seeing any promise like that.

[hayasidist]

I'll express a personal view here.

Moho is essentially a vector-based animation program and it has pretty reasonable tools for creating vector shapes (and, yep - there's a long list of features that could be added to vector drawing). It's added support to use its bones / vectors to animate bitmap graphic elements -- all to the good!

If I wanted only to animate bitmap stuff, there are (IMO) far better options than Moho. The desire to "try to compete" with them was, IMO, a massive blunder. The bitmap drawing in 13.0 was (still IMO) simply not good enough -- it had some neat ideas, but it fundamentally failed for all sorts of reasons. High on my list of why I'd never use the sort of bitmap drawing tools that were offered in 13.0 is that, compared to free stuff such as Krita, the 13.0 bitmap tools were (again IMO) pretty much limited to to quick sketching for (e.g. maybe) animatics, but not for serious production.


If I look at how I might use Moho to mix bitmap and vector animation I'd use a bitmap drawing program that is fit for purpose and:
> either import the bitmap frames (as a switch - which is essentially what an FBF group is) and use Moho to merge that with whatever vector stuff I wanted;
> or import a (do not render) video made from the bitmap stream as a guide to do the vector animation, then use a compositor to fit bitmap and vector together.


Still IMO, the work involved in bringing native Moho bitmap up to production quality is of a volume and complexity such that the effort would be (IMO) far far better spent on addressing all the improvements in vector drawing that have been identified.

(ofc, better integration of existing bitmap drawing capability is always possible as we've seen in 13.5's improved support for PSD files! -- This route, to my mind, is a quicker and much better option than starting development from scratch.)


Bottom line for me: Moho is ONE tool in my toolkit. The art is to choose and use the best set of tools to finish the job. And I'd be highly sceptical of claims (by any animation program vendor) that "this is the only tool you'll ever need".

[chucky]

I'll express a personal view here.

Moho is essentially a vector-based animation program and it has pretty reasonable tools for creating vector shapes (and, yep - there's a long list of features that could be added to vector drawing). It's added support to use its bones / vectors to animate bitmap graphic elements -- all to the good!

If I wanted only to animate bitmap stuff, there are (IMO) far better options than Moho. The desire to "try to compete" with them was, IMO, a massive blunder. The bitmap drawing in 13.0 was (still IMO) simply not good enough -- it had some neat ideas, but it fundamentally failed for all sorts of reasons. High on my list of why I'd never use the sort of bitmap drawing tools that were offered in 13.0 is that, compared to free stuff such as Krita, the 13.0 bitmap tools were (again IMO) pretty much limited to to quick sketching for (e.g. maybe) animatics, but not for serious production.


If I look at how I might use Moho to mix bitmap and vector animation I'd use a bitmap drawing program that is fit for purpose and:
> either import the bitmap frames (as a switch - which is essentially what an FBF group is) and use Moho to merge that with whatever vector stuff I wanted;
> or import a (do not render) video made from the bitmap stream as a guide to do the vector animation, then use a compositor to fit bitmap and vector together.


Still IMO, the work involved in bringing native Moho bitmap up to production quality is of a volume and complexity such that the effort would be (IMO) far far better spent on addressing all the improvements in vector drawing that have been identified.

(ofc, better integration of existing bitmap drawing capability is always possible as we've seen in 13.5's improved support for PSD files! -- This route, to my mind, is a quicker and much better option than starting development from scratch.)


Bottom line for me: Moho is ONE tool in my toolkit. The art is to choose and use the best set of tools to finish the job. And I'd be highly sceptical of claims (by any animation program vendor) that "this is the only tool you'll ever need".

This wasn't necessary and not a universal opinion.
Please let's not start this all again.
The feature was only flawed because of issues with Moho's display render.
There is no good reason to actively attack something so valuable, just because it's not useful to you.
It' like saying horses have no value cos you can't ride.
I absolutely value it as part of a good workflow, mixing apps just to draw wastes a lot of time and messes up workflows and reduces spontaneity and creativity.

Nevertheless, there is no 'promise; of its return, who even knows?
I hope this topic gets deleted

[synthsin75]

I thought all the "IMO" made it clear it was just opinion.
No need to take it as an attack. Just add your own opinion.

But yeah, I don't remember any promise to bring it back.

[Lychee]

It's true, I'm getting old but I don't think I'm senile yet.
I remember when Moho was abandoned by Smith Micro in favor of Mr Victor's team, it was said that the FBF implemented in Moho 13.0 was very buggy and was removed for more stability.
I also remember that Victor said that this option would be put back later, I would do some research to prove my point.
As for FBF itself, I know there is better elsewhere, but I use Moho and I don't have the money or time to learn another program, the best for me is an all in one tool.
Also, I don't really plan on doing FBF at the moment, I just wanted to experiment with animated textures on top of my vector creations, which is what I was planning to do when I saw the option in Moho 13.0, but it was removed when I did the update.

[SimplSam]

...
I also remember that Victor said that this option would be put back later, I would do some research to prove my point.
...

I will save you the effort of the research ...

Some more news about the beta:
As you know, we had to work over a previous version of the code in order to make it compatible with Big Sur and also to be able to work in an environment that allows us to work fast and add new features quicker.
To make this work, we had to remove the bitmap drawing feature from version 13 and bring the Actions window and the 3D options back to the way they worked before that version.
Our plan is to work in better drawing tools in the future, but we want to spend more time on developing them to be sure we can give you something powerful and useful.
We know this can be an issue for some users and we are sorry about it. It was a hard decision to make, but we really believe it’s the best for the future of Moho.

..

All the best,
Víctor and the Lost Marble team.

I personally hope Bitmap support makes a return. Not for FBF or Painting, but for integrated Drawing & Editing with other media assets in one place.

[Daxel]

I'm kind of in the middle. Bitmap tools, even just the basics like 13.0 had, are useful and welcomed. But I also think that the developing cost is not worth it right now while Moho still needs big improvements and fixes to already existing key areas. I just wouldn't add any feature from scratch until freehand drawing, vector quality, workspace rendering fidelity and a few other key existing areas are working perfectly.

[hayasidist]

I personally hope Bitmap support makes a return. Not for FBF or Painting, but for integrated Drawing & Editing with other media assets in one place.

do you mean keeping the bitmap images inside the .moho container? and/or having the tools in the same program? or ...?

[SimplSam]

I personally hope Bitmap support makes a return. Not for FBF or Painting, but for integrated Drawing & Editing with other media assets in one place.

do you mean keeping the bitmap images inside the .moho container? and/or having the tools in the same program? or ...?

Having the ability to draw, edit & manipulate bitmaps inside Moho with all other layers content present. There could/should be various approaches to where the resultant bitmaps get stored.

[synthsin75]

I think a lot of the needs for bitmap FBF tools would be alleviated by better vector drawing tools.
But even if not, I think the existing vector drawing should be given priority. Once that is 100%, then time can be put into reimplimenting bitmap drawing. And maybe the effort put into the vector drawing would be a head start on adding bitmap drawing again.

[chucky]

I think, for a lot of reasons. it would be crazy not to have good drawing tools for a 2d animation app, both vector and bitmap.
It's pretty much standard to have both these days, those who don't will be those who miss the boat.

[synthsin75]

Moho has done pretty well with lackluster freehand for quite some time. It seems to offer enough unique features for people to be willing to work around what it lacks, which usually only involves adding one or two free apps to the workflow.

Is it ideal? No, but things rarely are. My point is that the journey toward better vector drawing tools is probably significantly shorter than to bitmap drawing. And the developments of better vector tools is likely to help move closer to implementing bitmap drawing.

But if stopping all progress on vector tools to focus on bitmap tools is your preference, that's your prerogative. Playing catch-up in an area other apps have already mastered is a tough hill to climb. It would take a lot for Moho to truly compete against dedicated bitmap freehand animation programs.

But maybe I'm too pragmatic.

[chucky]

That's not what I said Wes.

[synthsin75]

What would you rather have first. Lackluster vector and bitmap tools or top notch vector drawing and a good basis for later bitmap tools?
Sounds like your priority is bitmap drawing...in an app that has only flirted with bitmap drawing.