Moho 14.1: Frequent crashes, guaranteed layer selector crash in advanced rig file

[Scabby]

Making a rig in Moho 14 was going great for me, but at some point, apparently my rig got too big to handle?

Now, if I open the file and try to use layer selector to jump to any layer I need to work on, Moho will crash every time. If I scroll down to a layer manually there's usually no problem, but there's still a good chance it'll crash later at random. The layer selector crash is guaranteed though, it's a huge problem that's killing my workflow.

Earlier versions of the file don't crash, so there was a tipping point where it got to be "too much." There are a ton of layers, tons of curvers rigged to bones, point bones, smart bones, masks, etc.. I could try removing some bones, but I'm not done yet, haven't even gotten to the turnarounds yet, which will require adding more bones, more curvers, more smart bones. Pruning the rig now would only be a bandaid, if Moho's gonna start crashing again as I add more. As of right now, the file is only 564KB, it's tiny.

There's no error message or any hints as to what, exactly, is happening. Does Moho save crash logs somewhere? Shows up as an application error in Event Viewer but there's no useful information there to narrow down what's happening. Tried removing all extensions, same problem.

[synthsin75]

I'd start by checking if there are keyframes in the negative timeline: viewtopic.php?t=32714

[Scabby]

Ok, used it, no negative timeline frames found.

[synthsin75]

564KB for a complex file is deceptive, as the file format is actually a zip archive with a much larger file compressed inside.

My next guess would be using layer references. Sometime these have been known to get "corrupted." Deleting them and remaking them seems to help in this case.
You might try that on a copy of your file.

Also, we're still early in the point releases. v13 wasn't as stable as it ended up being until 13.5.

[Scabby]

Surprisingly, the file doesn't have any layer referencing set up. Instead I just duplicated into new layers for things like vitruvian bone arms.

Also considered if the many .png layers I used for hair were a problem, since I guess others have had problems with imported files, but no luck there. Removing all png layers made no difference.

Do curvers have any known issues? I'm using a LOT of curvers, they're incredibly useful. I went full Xzibit with curvers, like, yo dawg, I put curvers on my curvers so I can curve while I curve. That would be the next thing to try pruning, but seriously, curver-curvers are some next level sorcery so I hope that's not the problem.

[Daxel]

Now I want to know more about curver-curver-curvers.
Have you tried disabling certain effects in the viewport to see if the slowdown is graphic related? Color points have some known issues.

Making a copy of the file and deleting layers until you notice a difference can help you identify the problematic layer.

[synthsin75]

Curvers are basically just warp meshes, but with tons of small slices. So having curvers manipulate other curvers could be multiplying the performance hit.

I'd suggest using regular bone chains and curvers, rather than stacking curvers. Like Daxel said, try removing things from a copy of the file, to isolate the problem.

[Scabby]

Ok, so I ruled out curvers by deleting every warp layer in the document. Also tried ungrouping the vitruvian bones. Still, same exact crash when using layer selector.

Interestingly, I've been keeping an eye on task manager the whole time, and there's no notable performance spikes when the crash happens. Everything seems to stay stable.

Tried copying all layers to a new file, same problem. Tried copying all the layers minus all bones/actions/etc., STILL crashes on using layer selector. WTF is going on? There's nothing left to rule out but the vector layers themselves. So what now, is a vector dividing by zero or something? I can't salvage the countless hours spent on this rig, no idea what broke while making it.

If I can't figure out what's wrong with it, I'll have to go back to a much older version of the file that's missing all rigging and tons of other adjustments, probably dozens of hours of work. Doesn't have whatever's magically crashing the layer selector, though. :/

Edit: OK, getting closer to solving it. Something's wrong with one layer group that, if it's present in the file along with other layers, causes the layer selector to crash. There's something lethal about the "eyes" layer in this file:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14FgTzg ... drive_link

[synthsin75]

If you can pare the file down to the minimum that still makes it crash using layer selector, you could post it here for others to investigate.

Otherwise, it's just shots in the dark at this point.

[SimplSam]

... There's something lethal about the "eyes" layer in this file: https://drive.google.com/file/d/14FgTzg ... drive_link

That file is inaccessible - says permission required.

[Scabby]

Sorry, I was editing that post just as you were replying, fixed the link permission too. I narrowed it down to the "irises" layer. It was tricky 'cuz the crash was still happening if the layer was deleted without reopening the file, so it took a ton of restarts to narrow it all the way down.

And now I think I've solved it. One of the irises was set to have an "image texture," but it didn't have one at all. It was actually using a gradient, just like the other one, same gradient as the other, too. Apparently it was that small discrepancy that brought Moho to its knees. >_>

Edit: Oh, and after selecting the offending iris shape with the select shape tool and changing the effect to gradient, it's still necessary to save and exit Moho to make the layer selector work again. This actually would've been super easy to fix if Moho saved some sort of crash log, or like, gave an error message, rather than just super-crashing without giving any clues what was wrong.

[SimplSam]

Well done on the detective work.

At this point I can see the issue with the missing Texture vs Gradient - but I can't get Moho to crash.

[Scabby]

Well, it gets weirder. It's not crashing for you because the image is missing, but on my end, turns out it's not missing at all. It's the png, deleting it and making it a missing file actually fixes the problem.

So if I'm correct, adding this .png to the same folder as my broken .moho file should cause the crash:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YxDb1l ... drive_link

This should be the last step to unravelling this bug. What's wrong with this .png? There doesn't appear to be anything wrong with it, and yet it's so very wrong.

[Greenlaw]

There could be some corrupted data in the file.

Whenever I get a misbehaving file (image, audio, whatever) I open it in another program and save it as a different file. Many times, this will clear out the junk.

[SimplSam]

OK - Now I have KaBoom

I have also been able to recreate from scratch using other texture image content, in a document with a single layer and a single shape.

It appears to be a combination of the shape having an Image Texture and a Stroke Brush that triggers the issue when trying to alt-right-click select a layer.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1f-n2zd ... sp=sharing

The issue has also been reported.