Frame by Frame animation discussion...

[funksmaname]

After another thread going way off topic i decided to start this one in the hope it will get the attention it deserves.

ive just spent a couple of minutes doing a test which surprisingly wasnt too difficult - anme and mov in the zip here.

What i did was like hypothesised above - i draw a frame, went to the next frame and moved what i just draw (i had onionskinning on set to follow one frame behind) and drew the next frame.

some frustrations:
1) you always have to go back a frame and move the new frames drawing out of the way as well as they are created from that point on all the way back to frame 0... setting it to 'step' stops any interpolation from off canvas to its right position though
2) filling objects when not in frame 0 using the space bar makes the animation play! this is really annoying on my test and i only had a single object to fill! imagine if there are more and every time you fill one the playhead zooms off
3) AS's onionskinning is somehting i've moaned about before - but its skeleton path approach rather than transparency degraded render makes it almost impossible to work with using more than a single frame of onionskinning... other than seeing a general flow of motion the canvas becomes really cluttered with frame previews.

scripting ideas:
ok so in order to make this easier - maybe we need a couple of scripts (Hayvern, please advise on possibilites as you are the man on this front)

1) a script to stop space bar playing the animation - this should be a toggle so when you arent editting the fbf layer you can use AS as normal
2) would it be possible to set a layer center point way off canvas and have an object fly to it using a shortcut... this can be used both on prev frames objects on the current frame, and on the previous frame with its new drawing...if that makes sense...

using these methods fbf animation in AS might actually become viable... its a much better way than a layer-per-frame solution.

Check the file.

[slowtiger]

If I want or need to work frame by fram, I just don't use AS. I use Mirage instead, bitmap-based and tailored to that goal. I've heard that you can work in ToonBoom (one of its variants) that way, and I've seen films dione in Flash that way.

[funksmaname]

yeah but i think working out a good workflow in AS could be beneficial - the potential to do point motion until such time as the shape needs to change in structure would be easier than going to another program just to do other bits to composit (especially if your camera movements/size/resolution and dimensions arent completely final)...

[dueyftw]

Toonboom has onionskinning set to one or two or three frames behind or infront. When you step to the next frame you see the onionskin of the last one.
Maybe a srcipt that does the same thing. That when you move forward it shows the last onionskin.

Toonboom is a vector ( when drawing in program) animation program and instead of bones you have pegs that let you move vector or bitmap pictures in a true 3D environment. The down side to ToonBoom is that it is so poorly written program. It will crash if you load in 100 or so bitmap pictures and 300 jpg. The only thing I can think that would cause this is that the program is pulling them into the program and using memory. It should be using links to each picture, that way, you can have as many as your hard can store.

Dale

[slowtiger]

Right now no animation program is able to integrate both approaches. In my personal work, I decide which to use on a scene-by-scene, even a character-by-character base, rendering stuff out of one program and import it into the other. My paid gigs, however, insist on doing everything in only one program, which sometimes slows me down enormously, depending on the kind of motion asked for.

[funksmaname]

i dont really want to digress into another toonboom discussion

Hayvern - if you're listening, what are the possibilities of scripting what i suggested?

[heyvern]

Well, first off the space bar "play" button can not be changed or overridden by a script.

If you want a new key for creating a shape look for the spot in the shape creation tool that has the "space" bar indicated for creating the shape and change the key code to something else. That is how those tools work, they use the key typed or "held down" to determine what to do. This is why it is problematic to create shapes after frame 0 because the space bar creates a shape and then it starts to play.

I never create shapes on a frame other than 0. This creates a key frame for the shape. Frame 0 the shape is "messed up"... it doesn't have an initial key for the fill and stroke colors.

-----

I am not completely clear on what the problem is in point 1:

1) you always have to go back a frame and move the new frames drawing out of the way as well as they are created from that point on all the way back to frame 0... setting it to 'step' stops any interpolation from off canvas to its right position though

It sounds like the problem is that you don't have any frames "between" frames. I don't know how to fix that even with a script. Maybe you could have your keys every 5 or 6 frames so you could put new keys intbetween those all of them set to step interpolation.

Then possibly a layer script could be created so that it "jumps" to frames that have a key instead of playing all frames. For instance if you have a key on frames 6,12,18-24 etc, the script would jump over "empty" frames.

The export would only render a frame with a key maintaining the the timing.

This is kind of a cool idea actually... when I get done with all my other scripts I will put it on my list... that dang list is getting long...

Also not sure what you mean here:

would it be possible to set a layer center point way off canvas and have an object fly to it using a shortcut... this can be used both on prev frames objects on the current frame, and on the previous frame with its new drawing...if that makes sense...

If you could explain this one a little better that might help. Not sure what you have in mind.

p.s. I was hoping to have my bone group script done by now but real world work intrudes. I've been doing tech sheets for soybean hybrids... I find myself dozing off while working on those gems.

-vern

[Genete]

Hi funksmaname!
In my opinion there is one thing you should need to make frame by frame animation feasible in Anime Studio: lock keyframes.

When you make a frame by frame animation in Anime Studio you should carefully create a keyframe to all the points at every frame. I mean every time you move one point you create a keyframe for that point but Anime Studio doesn't create any keyframe for the points that you don't move. BUT YOU REALLY WANT THOSE POINTS TO BE THERE!!! and not interpolated between the past keyframe and the future (not created) one.

So, if Anime Studio could have an specialized translate points tool that add a keyframe for all the points on the current layer the frame by frame animation could be possible.

-G

[montblankdesign]

In my opinion this is a critical feature requirement. It could be a color change on the timeline so you could see them at a glance. I think an addition to the keyframe menu would be the best place so newbies would mistakenly us it and then have big problems. I use the magnet tool to keyframe all the points on a layer in location. Not so great but it works.

[heyvern]

I think it might be simple enough to modify the translate point tool to key all points instead of just those selected. It could even be an optional check box. Currently it is just creating a list of selected points and putting in a key for those points when you click. Just skip the selected list part and key all the points.

The tool script is actually doing more "work" to ONLY key selected points because that is what most people want to happen.

-vern

[montblankdesign]

I know nothing about scripts. I live in Hollywood.
Does anyone have any tutorial suggestions for writing them for AS?

[funksmaname]

Hey vern,
Sorry i'll try to be clearer with what i meant...

Firstly, my goal in this is to completely redraw frames in a traditional way rather than manipulate existing shapes so the existance of line/fill information on any frame other than the current one is not necessary

1) other than the spacebar issue, you can draw in frames other than zero - but obviously that shape is added at frame 0 so it can exist even though it has no fill... this means if you put the shape in frame 5 for example, it suddenly gets created at frames 0-4... so I had to go to frame 4, and manually move the shape created in frame 5 off the canvas. (i realise if a fill is created at frame 5, then frames 0-4 will not display even though they exist, but then onion skinning becomes impossible.

Having said that, i think your solution for leaving gaps between frames is over complicated - i think all you would need is...

2) the script: if there was a script that moved a selected shape over to a specified point (i suggested the layer center point which can be moved with the tool) - then with a quick shortcut, following the example above, the shape created in layer 5 can be quickly removed from frame 4 and below with a shortcut. this means the workflow would be:
set onionskinning to follow 1 frame before
a) go to frame one and draw shape (f1)
b) go to frame two and select f1, then hit the shortcut to make it move away - you are now left with just the onionskin on canvas
c) draw shape (f2) in frame two
d) go back to frame 1, select shape f2 and hit the shortcut to make it move away
e) go to frame three and select f2, then hit the shortcut to make it move away - you are now left with just the onionskin on canvas
f) draw shape (f3) in frame three
etc...

I know its not the most elegant workflow, but it works - unless you could somehow script that a any shape created in one frame is automatically moved way off screen (to the center point?) automatically... taht would save some steps

does that make it any clearer?? maybe not lol.

Genete - that is an interesting idea, and would be really useful for certain types of frame by frame animation. Also, fazeks replace line tool which i didnt know existed till yesterday would be useful for a similar thing, as it maintains shape point numbers etc if you actually wanted to organically redraw the entire shape.

I'm actually talking about true fbf though, where each frame is made up of a different number of points completely and has no real relationship to the previous frame that can be automatically detected.

[Genete]

I'm actually talking about true fbf though, where each frame is made up of a different number of points completely and has no real relationship to the previous frame that can be automatically detected.

What about use switch layers? Draw each frame in a different layer (what can be also reusable) and use onionskin to help drawing. Even you can slown down or speed up the animation just changing the spacing of the switch keyframes. Problem: draw in a frame bigger than 0 for the shapes. Anyway you can draw the points at any frame (a little buggy for curvature values but works) and they should remain visible for all the animation and fill them at frame 0 once done the drawing.

Other alternative: Use synfig for that kind of fbf animations (you can make activate or deactivate points in the middle of the animation)...

-G

[heyvern]

Well funnksmaname...

If you could see my face right now...

it took me a few minutes after reading that description to finally blink and lift my jaw off the table. Seriously, you may want to look for another application that does frame by frame, cell type animation before actually trying to implement this work flow.

Think for a moment about the process you described... (f3)? What happens when you reach (f1,289)? You would have a shape for each frame? Or would they be "reused" as you went along? You would be MUCH better off using Fazek's replace line tool.

I don't much care for doing this type of animation myself, way too much work and I am not skilled enough or have the training for it, but I know a lot of people do so I want to be helpful if I can. I think that is why Fazek made that redraw line tool.

I think this is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. AS is the peg, cell style animation is the hole... the peg is made out of diamond so you can't just cut off the corners. The hole is also made of diamond so maybe if you push hard enough...

... okay I've completely lost the direction of that analogy but you get the idea. It could be that AS just isn't designed for cell animation at this time. Maybe it never will be. I will try to do that "skip frame" layer script. It sounds easy. The "key all points" tool should be easy as well. Unfortunately the script you are suggesting, even if it could be done I don't see much point in it. The process you describe has so much potential for crashing AS (literally creating hundreds if not THOUSANDS of shapes). I don't know what might happen but I know the files would be huge and AS would probably slow down. You don't have the option of using bones at all even for small simple things.

I don't think it would actually work at all since you would HAVE TO use saved styles and apply them to a shape in the middle of the time line. There is the potential of keying the styles. Imagine the nightmare if you had to change a color with 1,460 different versions of the same shape? If a saved style has its attributes keyed I think it will be hard to change it universally.

What about changing shape order? Suppose you have 500 shapes that are "identical" or represent the same shape on each frame and you need to put in a new shape below another shape? How would you lower that shape through 500 layers to find the exact spot? Each frame that shape would have to be recreated and lowered in between all the shapes including the new ones created as you go along...

... I'm getting light headed... give me a minute...

Some of these problems might have solutions... but in my humble opinion it just doesn't seem to be worth it. It would be a lot of work for a very specialized task that would only benefit a smaller group of AS users (not implying they aren't justified in wanting this, but I like to create scripts that everyone could use.)

It is an interesting discussion. Maybe work on the process. I will keep reading and if some other simpler solution comes up that I can help with I will definately keep an open mind.

-vern

[funksmaname]

you're right vern... as per usual.

My idea for this was literally to do short segments of fbf animation, rather than using AS as a tool to do complete fbf animation... for that toonboom would be a better solution... maybe its not worth the hassle - maybe fazeks line replacement tool is all i really need, or just do it the long way if i want to do short sections of fbf animation (like in my example mov, most of which could probably be done with straight line replacement, and then just cut to another layer when the shape splits...?)

it was really just a discussion, to see if anyone DOES have any ideas on how to implement it, but you're concern about crashing AS is also a valid one.

thanks for the response